Old English fiddle.

[Conor Russell]

I thought this might be of interest.

 

It's an old English violin, with lots of original bits and pieces, although it's seen better days.

 

It has a very fine groove in the back to take the ribs, but not as deep as an old French fiddle might have; almost just a scribe line really.

 

The head has the scalloping in the pegbox that was common on viols, usually lost when the neck is grafted.

 

It's a bit big, nearly 14 1/4 inches, and the archings are very round and strong. The f holes are chamfered off inside.

 

i'm not sure who made it, probably a Pamphillon, any ideas?

 

I think it's interesting because it predates the Stainer model in English making, and I think that had the English school continued in this tradition, we would be the richer for it.

[jacobsaunders]

I would quite like to bet that the letting in of the ribs in a shallow back grove goes back to early Füssen makers who emigrated to England, rather than France. It is hard to see in you’re pics, Conor, but did/does it have a “Through Neck”?

[Conor Russell]

Oops, having had a closer look, and cleaned off some crud, I see that what I took to be a very small groove is really just a scribe line.

 

The ribs are joined in the centre at the corners, with little blocks fitted.

 

The violin originally did have a through neck, since been cut off and reangled. The top and bottom blocks match each other and like the linings look like lime. So maybe they've all been replaced, it's hard to see with all the mess.

 

Sorry about the quality of the pictures.

[fiddlecollector]

Not Pamphilon ,looks more mid 18th century to me.

[bmccarthy]

I love the scroll/pegbox profile, very elegant. 

[Conor Russell]

Not Pamphilon ,looks more mid 18th century to me.

I think it's earlier, but I mostly see London school fiddles here from that time and a few others. What happened to the earlier style? did it fade away, or is there a link with the likes of the Dukes, Betts, Forsters etc ?

[Ben Hebbert]

Its not a Pamphilon - as we know them - and it does look like it should be mid-eighteenth-century as fiddlecollector says, but I am going to disagree....

I think the latest that I've seen scrolls with the triangle on the back would be Edward Lewis (2) from I think 1741. I recently saw a cello scroll by his dad (died 1717) which had exactly the same architecture for the inside of the pegbox. That tight grained wood is very typical of London makers in the period 1660-1700ish, and you see it in labelled viols - Barak Norman (from about 1690 to 1700 ish, and earlier George Miller comes to mind (1669). If the varnish is shellacy, that seems a feature of post-fire of London, especially Barak Norman and Richard Meares (I). Violins of this period seem to be a fairly standard "London pattern", and typically about 345mm back length, so about 1cm shorter than you would expect - even when workmanship, f-holes etc varies considerably. The treble side soundhole shows that it is cut at 90 degrees to the surface of the instrument so that the inside kind of sticks out - this is unusual, since English makers mostly undercut their soundholes, and elsewhere this is often trimmed at a later date, but it is something I have seen in very pure Parkers (1705-15 kind of period). This doesn't include wacky archaic instruments made by random makers, which of course break every rule I've mentioned. But, it seems to settle happily in that period - for me. I'd really love to see the instrument somehow one day.

I don't have the slightest clue of who made it. I've come across numerous names of violin makers who had strong reputations back then, but for whom nothing at all survives. Measurements would be really interesting!

[~ Ben Conover]

ebay ?

[Violadamore]

All I'm getting from the label besides eyestrain is "E.G.  [T?] and that "DIPAT" at the bottom.  Could it have been by one of the Thompsons possibly?

[Ben Hebbert]

The very rare Robert Thompson could be a sensible guess. He not only took over Barak Norman's shop (after five years with his widow at the helm and a small hiatus with the music publisher Daniel Wright), but there are a few things in his technique that suggest familiarity with the Norman/Nathaniel Cross workshop tradition. But I don't think its a right guess. His sons Charles and Samuel really belong to a completely different phase of violin making - though to confuse matters, I don't think they made a single violin, everything that they labelled as "Made and Sold by ... " was produced by outworkers. Also you need nice stodgy brown furniture varnish for it to be one of them.

[Ben Hebbert]

Any chance of a closeup of the label, please - Conor?

[Conor Russell]

I'm afraid the label is very damaged, I think that the first name may be Thomas but I'm not sure at all, and beneath that the word 'near', which is in much bolder print that doesn't quite fit.

 

The inside work is odd. The top and bottom blocks match and are of similar wood to the linings, the tiny corner blocks are of pine. The top block must be a replacement, but seems to have had a nail through it once. without cleaning things up I can't see exactly what's what, but I wonder if the neck was cut off and reangled early on, andthe linings and bottom block put in then too.

 

The fiddle's a mess, and the top right bout of the front has been replaced from the corner out, very much in the style of a London trade fiddle, painted on purflings and all. I don't see any connection in style with the later English fiddles I know, but rather the earlier ones.

 

I'll take some proper photos and post them again.

 

I've had this in a box since long before Ebay was even dreamt of!

[Berl Mendenhall]

Very cool.

[fiddlesurgeon]

I did the last turn on one ear of a recent scroll like that. I guess there is some precedence.

[Ben Hebbert]

Conor

If its Thomas - IF ... I can think of two, Urquhart and Cole. Since there's an Urquhart on my shelf right now I can be certain yours isn't. A however Thomas Cole is possibly the earliest English maker I know of to use inked purfling. His viols span the 1670s. His labels would read "Thomas Cole/ near Fetter Lane/ in Holborn 1672". However I have never seen a violin by him and it doesn't quite gel with my knowledge of his viols.

This is not an attribution!!!!!!

In at least one viol there is inked purfling on the back but inlayed on the front.

Best regards

[Conor Russell]

Hi ben. Only the repair has painted purfling, the rest is inlaid. Sorry if thi wasn't clear.

[Ben Hebbert]

Ah thanks. Still if the label is likely to say anything, I can't make a better guess than that! But, I dunno

[Conor Russell]

Here's the label.

[Addie]

Definitely seeing “Thom---“ and “near"

 

Near is a common addition to early addresses... like Clement’s Lane, near XXX-Church or whatever.

 

Adjusted:

 

 

[Ben Hebbert]

Thanks for this Conor, sometimes on labels like this you can pick up enough consistency to match them to known legible examples. Not in this case and the labels of Cole that I have mentioned are printed - not that that automatically excludes this one. He started off in ast Paul's Alley before going to Holborn - for what it's worth.

Addie, you are right that 'near' is fairly common up to the early 19th century. How many Thomas's have you found from 'near' anything at this early period?

[vathek]

There appears to be a brand or stamp above the label. I see a clear letter R and what looks like some sort of device.

[Addie]

Well, I use the London directories a lot... just not this early.  But that is the place to go, if there are no similar labels to compare.

 

What I see is “Thom” in a light copperplate script, with a printed line border.  The “near" may or may not be printed.  Probably not.

 

This is what I see:

 

 

[Conor Russell]

I'm afraid that the label had glue runs over it at some time, and these were fairly thoroughly scrubbed off. (not by me, I hasten to add)

 

The bottom of the label has an extra wide bit about two thirds way across, and I suspect that the date may have been there. There may still be something beneath the dirt. I may bring it in to a paper restorer to have it's face washed. There's one in the workshop next to Mick de Hoog, a violin maker freind in Dublin, so if they're mates, I might get a good deal.

[Addie]

It’s not that expensive, and sometimes they can do amazing things.

[Addie]

These are the same type of label... suggesting it is not 17th c.