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Violin #5 - Strad Body modes


Peter K-G

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Peter, the problem is not with the bone/hide glue, but with its application. When the temperature outdoors is below freezing, and particularly in Scandinavian countries (-20 °C), before using the bone/hide glue, you must apply a primer coating of weak glue on the blocks,  the flat edge of the ribs and linings (at both edges of the rib garland), the flat of the edges of the top and back plates. At 0% moisture content, the blocks and the corners will instantly absorb all the glue, as they are of end wood. Without this precaution, the back and top plates will come unglued after a while, usually after varnishing (to further annoy the violin maker). Whatever the moisture and temperature conditions (both ambient and in the wood), this precautionary measure must always be taken, at least for the blocks and the corners.


www.kreitpatrick.com

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Peter, the problem is not with the bone/hide glue, but with its application. When the temperature outdoors is below freezing, and particularly in Scandinavian countries (-20 °C), before using the bone/hide glue, you must apply a primer coating of weak glue on the blocks,  the flat edge of the ribs and linings (at both edges of the rib garland), the flat of the edges of the top and back plates. At 0% moisture content, the blocks and the corners will instantly absorb all the glue, as they are of end wood. Without this precaution, the back and top plates will come unglued after a while, usually after varnishing (to further annoy the violin maker). Whatever the moisture and temperature conditions (both ambient and in the wood), this precautionary measure must always be taken, at least for the blocks and the corners.

www.kreitpatrick.com

 

I would never consider gluing anything else with other than hide glue, but I have had two experience with back plate halves splitting in the glue joints, before and after the violins where finished. I fixed it by using a syringe to get glue into the joints where they where unglued.

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Peter, this has happened to nearly all of us (and for the others, their time will come).

 

Since the top and back plates’ joints are already glued, don’t touch them: there is no danger there.

 

In order to glue the joint perfectly (on top and back plates), beforehand, you must use a knife-point to cross-hatch the gluing surface on the half-plates (top and back). This will also prevent the wood from slipping on the hot glue during clamping. The same thing must be done on the flat part of the neck and the fingerboard.

 

When the moisture content in the wood is between 0% and 2.5%, the wood must be primed with a very diluted coat of glue and left to dry. This prevents the wood from absorbing the glue when you proceed with the definitive joining. The glue must be a little stronger (less diluted) than for other uses. In learning a trade, whatever it may be, experience is what costs the most.


www.kreitpatrick.com

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Peter, this has happened to nearly all of us (and for the others, their time will come).

 

Since the top and back plates’ joints are already glued, don’t touch them: there is no danger there.

 

In order to glue the joint perfectly (on top and back plates), beforehand, you must use a knife-point to cross-hatch the gluing surface on the half-plates (top and back). This will also prevent the wood from slipping on the hot glue during clamping. The same thing must be done on the flat part of the neck and the fingerboard.

 

When the moisture content in the wood is between 0% and 2.5%, the wood must be primed with a very diluted coat of glue and left to dry. This prevents the wood from absorbing the glue when you proceed with the definitive joining. The glue must be a little stronger (less diluted) than for other uses. In learning a trade, whatever it may be, experience is what costs the most.

www.kreitpatrick.com

The PVA glue disturbed me so I clamped a ledge next to the joint and sawn it apart with a Japanese saw. Followed your advice obove, back plate pieces are now glued together with hide glue :)

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In order to glue the joint perfectly (on top and back plates), beforehand, you must use a knife-point to cross-hatch the gluing surface on the half-plates (top and back). This will also prevent the wood from slipping on the hot glue during clamping. The same thing must be done on the flat part of the neck and the fingerboard.

Hmm, who trained you to do it this way?

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David,

 

Thank you for pointing out the problem with gluing too dry wood joints.I knew about this from experience and used PVA glue. This lead to strong opinions from Anders and Don, which lead to Patrick helping me to a solution that I decided to go for. (This is how I do business daytime)

 

As gluing has been on the agenda I searched MN:

 

Maybe instead of commenting Patrick's post with:

Hmm, who trained you to do it this way?

 

You could have posted someting like this:

http://www.thestrad.com/pdfs/hotGlue.pdf

 

You still haven't answered my question:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328058-modern-makers-win-again/page-18#entry581153

 

You make really beautiful instruments.

 

Anyway, thank you for leading me to a better backplate joint on my Strad sounding Violin #5 :)

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You still haven't answered my question:

 

 

"David,

Googled around a little on the Internet.

You make some of the most beautiful instruments I have seen! It took a

while to find the world class violin maker behind the Hulk Hogan image

and poorly formed Web site, text and design.

Why?"

 

 

Sorry, wasn’t sure I understood the question. Do you think I should act more formal and aristocratic?

Naw, I was raised that way (I’m a preacher’s kid) and got bored with it. Just finished “Hillbilly 101” at the local community

college, and passed with what is considered an excellent grade (which is an F in that class, an A is considered failing). :lol:

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I respect that David (had to google Hillbilly 101, not sure I understand, some US cultural thing?) I hate formal and aristocratic!

But there are many other ways like; respectful, helpful, teaching, guiding etc., amateurs like me with little experience in the craftmanship of violin making.

 

You are obviously a great violin maker with sense for perfection. You know how to win competitions also, maybe that's a secret you don't want to share?

 

I have a passion for old Cremonse sound, if there is such a thing :) (as you also have read from my posts in, Mondern makers win again, Old vs New and some other...)

 

I'm on the MN to learn and share experience. This thread is about showing step by step, how to get weight and body modes like a Stradivari from the golden period, with the wood I chose. The sound I can't prove, but I can measure the thing's that are known today.

 

Once again thank's for pointing out the problem with dry wood and joining with hide glue. I followed Patricks advice and got a perfect joint by priming with really thin hide glue first and cross-hatching the surfaces:

 

 

post-37356-0-95738700-1364639745_thumb.jpg

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I use theese tools for joining, by first clamping together the flat side of the wood. This way the seam will be perfect even if the gluing surface is not perpendicular to the flat side.

 

post-37356-0-17563600-1364640539_thumb.jpg

 

Is there a better way, it takes a couple of hours (3,5 h yesterday)

Have tried bigger planes with now success.

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Once again thank's for pointing out the problem with dry wood and joining with hide glue. I followed Patricks advice and got a perfect joint by priming with really thin hide glue first and cross-hatching the surfaces:

Peter, my warning about joining plates which haven't reached stable moisture content didn't have to do with the strength of the glue bond, or how good the joint looks. It had to do with the wood continuing to go through changes in shape, which will put large stresses on the joint, making it more likely that it will fail later. As I mentioned in an earlier post:

 

Minor warping wouldn't bother me. I'd be much more concerned about the

long-term integrity of a center joint which was made before the wood had

attained moisture stabiliby.

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Allways a smart sentence in the end :)

I will give one also. I make violins as Stradivari use to.

In both cases the question still un answered: HOW

 

It was a serious answer.

If it didn't speak to you, perhaps you can help provide me with a context for answering the question, from your frame of reference.

How does one learn to write computer software which impresses professional colleagues?

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It was a serious answer.

If it didn't speak to you, perhaps you can help provide me with a context for answering the question, from your frame of reference.

How does one learn to write computer software which impresses professional colleagues?

We share!

Software development communities and open source projects, are the most impressive and cool thing that has happened in modern time. We put out our problems to development comunities on the Internet and get somtimes hundreds of suggestions and answers in a matter of hours.

Sorry if I mistakenly didn't think your answer was serious. But that's what I ask if something interests me "How" and by that I mean on a practical level to acheive the result.

No one has especially asked me how on this thread. I wanted to share anyway, also all my mistakes so others won't do them. If I know somthing and if it's of no commercial value to me or anyone alse I share :)

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We share!

 

OK, we do too. But our most significant sharing takes place when makers are gathered together with examples in hand. Three dimensional visual concepts are a lot harder to express with a keyboard than computer code is, and so is sound.

 

How to make a really good violin isn't something which can be successfully communicated even by writing an entire book, or at least no one has managed to do it so far. It's more like learning to play the violin well. Happens best with live coaching, and typically involves a lot of it.

 

So what was your question again? How to win instrument making competitions?

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