Sleeping Beauty Violin Bow Stick?

[martin swan]

To put in a word for Isaac Salchow ...

Apart from being an all round decent guy and having an extraordinary eye, he has taken bow identification forward in a really interesting direction. I hope everyone's aware of the work he's doing with Stephan Jansen on the French Bow Research Institute : http://fbri.net/. This is a project which uses data crunching capability to conduct forensic examinations of aspects of bows - metal composition, pernambuco identification at a molecular level, hyper-magnification of toolmarks etc.

Rather like dendrochronology, the accuracy of this work depends on the sample size, but in many cases it can give conclusive results and identifications which are not at the mercy of the whim, mood, experience or prejudice of the particular expert consulted. This type of applied science is something I welcome - as the value of older violins and bows soars, it's in everyone's interests to stick as far as possible to facts.

If I wanted a perfectly correct identification of a bow that could be a Pajeot, I would take it to Isaac. He has an unrivalled old school "eye" and a very cool chemistry set. And unlike the Parisians, he probably works Fridays.

[fiddlecollector]

Martin, you dont need to defend the Salchow`s  i know of their expertise ,along with Paul Childs, I have my opinion and i cant really see anyone can come up with any 100% identification on a bow like the one at tarisio. Both Lafleur and Gaulard had associations with Pajeot ,materials are likely to be similar (if not identical)as well and many workshop/school bows were produced at this time in several qualities .Many now feature new replacement frogs and hardware.

A maker can say `Maker A ` cut a chamfer on the head like so and so. But so can anyone who may have been trained or associated with them. There are far fewer unique features on bows than instruments which can be used as id features ,which is probably why to many they all look similar.

Ive mentioned Peccatte in the past who was supposed to have made bows numbering into the 1000`s over a long career. (no doubt in varying qualities including low quality) But how often do you see anything other than silver ,gold and tortoiseshell examples listed as D peccatte being the sole maker????

Everything else is Peccatte school /workshop with heads shapes all over the place. There is still a big hole in our knowledge as far as im concerned.

[Violadamore]

Martin, thank you immensely for the link.   The single posted analysis accessible (of a gold mounted Pajeot) is rather interesting, if terse http://fbri.net/current-case-study-may-2013.  Hopefully more of substance will appear on their website.

[fiddlecollector]

I hope this venture turns out  better for Jansen  than Da Salo Auctions did.

[filimonovfineviolins]

I am having trouble posting photos here. Any suggestions?

[Charles Hansen]

I am having trouble posting photos here. Any suggestions?

 

Hello Filimonov,

 

There are two ways to post photos. If the image is on the internet, you can use the "Reply to this topic" option. As soon as you type in the box two rows of icons will appear. In the second row of icons below the smiley face is an icon that looks like a green TV screen. If you click on that, you can cut and paste a URL of the photo.

 

The other way is if the photo is on your computer. Then press the button "More Reply Options" below the box for typing. Below the new space for typing your message is an image of a paper clip for attaching files from your computer. Press the "Browse" button and navigate to the file on your computer that you wish to attach. There is a 10 MB upload limit, but that is either a very large and detailed photo in "Raw" format (most cameras will save to JPG unless they are professional ones) or else a LOT of normal photos.

 

Hope this helps,

Charlie

[filimonovfineviolins]

Since I have not posted here in a longtime, I think the issue is that there is a restriction which will be lifted after 5 more approved posts.

[Charles Hansen]

Hello, I hope I am not breaking any rules but I offered to post a photo on behalf of Mr. Filimonov. Here is the certificate of the bow he purchased. Thanks, Charlie.

[martin swan]

Now it looks like a Pajeot .....!

[fiddlecollector]

Are you 100 % certain Martin???   I see it is amourette.

I was hoping for some better photos of the head ,as we can discount the frog /button.

[filimonovfineviolins]

The frog and button were made by my good friend Robert Morrow, a fabulous maker living in Seattle, WA.

[Michael Appleman]

But how often do you see anything other than silver ,gold and tortoiseshell examples listed as D peccatte being the sole maker????

Everything else is Peccatte school /workshop with heads shapes all over the place. There is still a big hole in our knowledge as far as im concerned.

 

I think I'm treading on thin ice here, but the line between "by" and "school of" can be thin and flexible, and can vary from one expert to another.

 

I've had more than one bow go from one category to another depending on which of the major experts were looking. Once one of them commits it to a certificate, the others usually fall in line, at least verbally, but those experts who still buy and sell might choose to stay away from a bow about which they're not 100% sure.

 

A little true anecdote that recalls how fungible this business can be.

I brought a friend's bow to Big Bow Expert "A" who certified it as a François Peccatte.

I had a chance to show it to Big Bow Expert "B" who immediately said it was clearly a Dominique and certified it as such.

My friend asked me to sell it for her, so I put it on the market as a Dominique with the certificate from expert "B."

A dealer "C" had a client for it, who wanted certificates from both "A" and "B."

Dealer "C" went back to Expert "A" who promptly certified it as a Dominique Peccatte.

[fiddlecollector]

Oringo, your post is exactly what my experience over the years has been. But i tend to not mention any other certificates or opinions ,when getting another opinion.

Funny and rather annoying when one big expert makes their opinion known and no-one else disagrees or are willing to go against it. I doubt it furthers the knowledge of bowmaking very much,if at all.

Regarding the bow in question, i doubt very much that the replacement frog is appropriate for an amourette bow of his kind . It was probably an open trench frog or at least had minimal frog hardware.

[filimonovfineviolins]

There are many very fine bows by the best makers of the past including Pajeot, Peccatte, Maire, Fonclause, Maline, Harmand and others that were made in woods other than pernambuco.

The thing is that when France went through the Naloleonic wars, and after Napoleon abdecated in 1813, France went through much hatdship economically. It was not until Napoleon III was in power from 1850- 1870 that things got better from them.

So makers had to use whatever they had.

It is said that Francois Lupot was supplying many of the shops in Paris with pernambuco during the hard times as he had quite the connections in Orlean as it is located on the Loire River and there was a lot of trade going through there at the time.

So, there are many fine bows mounted in maillechort and lesser woods with very nice mountings etc by the greatest makers.

I have had bows by Francois Peccatte, and Maline, and pernambuco, bois d'abeille and ironwood, and I tell you, that they all sounded and played great. THERE WAS VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE when copmared to the pernambuco counterparts.

Pajeot also made experimental bows, with very cleverly designed frogs (I have one such bow) using other woods such as snakewood etc..

So to assume that this type of stick had an open trench frog is nonsence.

Sorry to be so blunt.

[filimonovfineviolins]

Sorry for the silly topys, but my new tablet has a mind of its own.

[Michael Appleman]

Hello Gennady! It's Michael in Paris.

Congratulations on this bow and I'm glad to hear it's a great playing bow!

I've heard you often in different forums defending non-pernambuco bows by great makers, and I have to say I can only partially agree with you.

I think as a player it's always worth giving them a try, because some of them are great playing, great sounding bows, and sometimes you can get a bargain compared to what a pernambuco bow by the same maker would go for. I'm afraid I can't agree that they are always just as good, in fact, my experience is rather the opposite. Then again, i've seen beautiful Peccattes in pernambuco that weren't better playing bows than some non-pernambuco Peccattes.

My understanding of the pernambuco situation is that it came to the bow-making community from the cloth dying industry, and Lupot seems to have been one of the chief suppliers to the bow makers in Paris. The supply seems to have been choked off in the 1830's (around the time of Lupot's death) and that seems to be the period Pajeot started experimenting with every kind of exotic hardwood he could find, including a weird bright yellow wood that really does work for me as a playing bow, though it is strange to look at! That's also the period Vuillaume started making his metal bows, and if you've never tried one, I recommend giving one a try. I've got one and can see why DeBeriot and Paganini endorsed those.

By the 1840's-50's, it seems like the supply of pernambuco was back to normal, so I think Fiddlecollector's comment isn't entirely off. My experience is that you can find Pajeot's with exotic woods fitted with "first quality" hardware, but starting from the 1840's onwards, you start to see a clearer hierarchy of non-pernambuco bows being relegated to "second-class" status.

[fiddlecollector]

There are many very fine bows by the best makers of the past including Pajeot, Peccatte, Maire, Fonclause, Maline, Harmand and others that were made in woods other than pernambuco.

The thing is that when France went through the Naloleonic wars, and after Napoleon abdecated in 1813, France went through much hatdship economically. It was not until Napoleon III was in power from 1850- 1870 that things got better from them.

So makers had to use whatever they had.

It is said that Francois Lupot was supplying many of the shops in Paris with pernambuco during the hard times as he had quite the connections in Orlean as it is located on the Loire River and there was a lot of trade going through there at the time.

So, there are many fine bows mounted in maillechort and lesser woods with very nice mountings etc by the greatest makers.

I have had bows by Francois Peccatte, and Maline, and pernambuco, bois d'abeille and ironwood, and I tell you, that they all sounded and played great. THERE WAS VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE when copmared to the pernambuco counterparts.

Pajeot also made experimental bows, with very cleverly designed frogs (I have one such bow) using other woods such as snakewood etc..

So to assume that this type of stick had an open trench frog is nonsence.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Gennady, sorry to be so blunt but its NOT `nonsense` and you can not be so certain what it was originally mounted in . Whats wrong with an open trench frog?

Ive seen hundreds of fine first half of the 19th century French bows that have been upgraded from an original opentrench frog. They certainly tend to sell better and for more!

Ive seen many and had one or two of these Pajeot experimental frogged bows and some are not always very practical.

I also have a LS Pajeot in Ironwood (swartzia bannia)  from Vichy  that came with a German Bausch school frog ,it plays marvellously but has problems at the handle where someone decided to thin it to fit the none original frog. No-one seems to be able to suggest an appropriate method of repair !

If you read any of my previous posts in other threads you will notice that im usually a stern defender of non- pernambuco bows ,in fact my experience is similar to yours regarding the playability. (and they can look just as beautiful).

There is an exception though ,that is sticks that have been poorly made or graduated without any regard to the non pernambuco material. Or ones that appear to have been mass produced and made by poorly seasoned wood and are now often all warped.(and there are alot of these about,they show up all the time in France)

[filimonovfineviolins]

Topys was supposed to be typos....

[filimonovfineviolins]

Hi guys,

Especially Michael in Paris.

Long time.....

Yes, I've had many bows in lesser woods. Currently one of them is a P. Simon with open trench frog and this Pajeot with a very nice contemporary frog.

I think most people, when they buy the classic bows with open trench frogs, have contemporary frog and buttons made for these bows anyway.

The open trench was not the ideal design, but made these fine bows available to a wider range of customers.

[filimonovfineviolins]

BTW, I agree that there are plenty of " tired" pernambuco bows by some of the greatest makers.

My favorite bow as of recently is a N.KITTEL which beats a great many bows.

My pride and joy....

[Michael Appleman]

How do you feel playing the open trench frog bows you have? many years ago i got my "killer" bow, a 1790's N.L. Tourte (viola bow) with an ivory open trench frog. I had a modern silver mounted frog made for playing, as I never felt comfortable playing with the open trench. Somehow the hair felt "floppy." More recently, I picked up a couple of open trench Fonclause's a violin and a viola, and they play just great. I don't feel any need to have a "ferulled" frog put on.

[filimonovfineviolins]

Yeah, for the most part the open trench frog makes the bow feel "floppy".

Well put....

Thank you Mr. VIOTTI and Mr. Tourte.

For a esthetics, it' s great to see these bows as they truly were. And yes some are strong enough to play well as they are.

I have a very nice Guinot (which looks like a Pajeot), open trench (no underslide) with stunning pearl shields on the sides.

It plays very well as it is, but with a "modern" frog it is way better.