It's no secret

[joerobson]

Just some thoughts...join in....

Most violin makers, at some point in their careers, try varnish making.  As I have said, and we see in the conversation between Jacob and Ernie, there are many ways to make this stuff.  Some successful and some less than sucessful.

The biggest mistake I see over the years is this: Do not make your batch too small.  If you are experimenting or making for your own use it does not pay to "just make a little to try it out." 

You may think you are saving time and money.  Fact is that small batches have no temperature control.  If you get something you like and then try to repeat it in a larger cook, it is very likely that the results will not be the same.

on we go,

Joe

 

ps: it's not just about the varnish..........

[fiddlewallop]

I have adhered to this rule, with gallons of funky varnish gathering dust in my basement.  

Not to say, they won't be good measuring sticks for future batches of more funky varnish to come!

[tango]

Joe

I don`t know if it`s a secret or not. But is a very good advice.

In Maestronet are mixed expert and beginners . I appreciate your post.

Many thanks

Tango

[Guest]

Good point Joe...I tried making a small batch recently and I noticed that the cooking time and temperatures really change compared to making a large batch.

[DonLeister]

Joe, how much is too small and how much is just right?

[~ Ben Conover]

I agree about batch size, my second batch was about 5 pints, which when diluted with alcohol and some shellac works out at 10 pints.

The size of the pot is the only limit.

 

[joerobson]

Joe, how much is too small and how much is just right?

 

Don,

For me?....I do every batch centered around a pound of resin.  I used to use a thermometer a lot....and I recommend this to most varnish making....but after a while it is just a nuisance.  I like to control temperature to around +/- 3 degrees C.

Joe

[Jacob]

Joe, what you are describing sounds like a commercial quantity to me. Would you say that Oded's variation of the Hill recipe is too small to work?

[joerobson]

Joe, what you are describing sounds like a commercial quantity to me. Would you say that Oded's variation of the Hill recipe is too small to work?

 

Jacob,

The batch you just made...350 grams resin...is about 12 oz...yes?  In a narrow but tall pot using a very controlable heat source....that would work for me.

Joe

[lyndon]

The two fires I have had making varnish have both been cases of trying to make too large a batch of varnish, at least for the vessels I was using, so I guess I would have to disagree with Joe, its a good rule to never fill your varnish jar more than 1/4 full of varnish/solvent if any heating is occuring.

[joerobson]

The two fires I have had making varnish have both been cases of trying to make too large a batch of varnish, at least for the vessels I was using, so I guess I would have to disagree with Joe, its a good rule to never fill your varnish jar more than 1/4 full of varnish/solvent if any heating is occuring.

 

lyndon,

I am glad we both have survived our varnish fires...safety first!

 

I hope this thread will get into other aspects of the work too.

 

Joe

[Oded Kishony]

I usually make about a pound of resin at a time. But very early on I tried a nitrification process and was working in an apartment at the time so I decided to make a batch in a test tube. Good thing I did because as I added the strong nitric acid it began to change to a lovely red color, I walked across the room to show it to my wife. The reaction then kicked in and the contents of that  test tube started boiling and frothing over the top in the middle of our living room, right over the Oriental rug.

 

It's amazing how we all survived our youth, well maybe some of us didn't, but they aren't around to warn us, now, are they.

 

Oded

[MikeC]

so what else is it about? 

 

 

 

ps: it's not just about the varnish..........

[James M. Jones]

so what else is it about? 

I've been thinking on it ...perhaps, the secret is not so much what he's "doing" but rather what he's "thinking" ..... long ago and far away a master looked at my work .and said .... look at the whole line ...that was the first.He also taught that the wood needed to be talked to and listened to. As a blacksmith we had it drilled in hard to ,to think backwards from the completed work,and my personal favorite

"If the eye can't see it the hand can't make it ,

If the tongs can't hold it the hammer can't hit it ,

and you can't remember it ....forget it"

Francis Whitaker, master artist blacksmith RIP(my masters master)

There's a lot in there,  I use those idea every day in my work.   So, what of your thoughts ? What do you see?

  What are the big ideas that you focus on? That's my secret.

[CarloBartolini]

  What are the big ideas that you focus on? 

 

I wish I could contribute more, but my violin and varnish knowledge is small, the one similar place where I have some experience is achieving the sound, and I imagine the look is the same principle, I believe you can have a reference, they are good to keep us focused, but there is a point you are dealing with a different building structure, materials, thinking, so there is a point in the life of a labor, that one needs to free oneself from the reference, and follow the path dictated by what you have in your hands, and where it can lead you, build on it's strengths, not be afraid of taking risks and of uniqueness, and hopefully achieve something meaningful, which feels right, and does not conforms to rules, but excels them....

[~ Ben Conover]

The idea that a maker has his own plans and ideas is important.
With the internet has come the sharing of ideas, which is not a bad thing, in moderation.


 

[Guest]

I've been thinking on it ...perhaps, the secret is not so much what he's "doing" but rather what he's "thinking" ..... long ago and far away a master looked at my work .and said .... look at the whole line ...that was the first.He also taught that the wood needed to be talked to and listened to. As a blacksmith we had it drilled in hard to ,to think backwards from the completed work,and my personal favorite

"If the eye can't see it the hand can't make it ,

If the tongs can't hold it the hammer can't hit it ,

and you can't remember it ....forget it"

Francis Whitaker, master artist blacksmith RIP(my masters master)

There's a lot in there,  I use those idea every day in my work.   So, what of your thoughts ? What do you see?

  What are the big ideas that you focus on? That's my secret.

Excellent James...look at the pm I'm sending you....along those lines.

 

-Ernie

[Violadamore]

Not being a risk taker, i have little to contribute here.  I evolved a varnish recipe early on, based on mastic, sandarac, and damar crushed fine and steeped for long periods in a mixture of gum turpentine and alcohol with a sprinkle of linseed oil until it's all fully dissolved.  It works fine for me and produces a clear durable finish with a slight amber cast. It's easily thinned with alcohol.  When i need colors, I add madder lakes or burnt umber mostly.  Once i got it right, I've never messed with it.

 

The abandon with which some here use nitric acid gives me the willies.  Aside from etching metal, I've avoided the stuff, having learned in chemistry labs long ago how easy it is to produce propellants by accident.  One gets a mental picture of David Burgess's pun about "small violin planes" becoming a rocket..........    Has anyone actually had any difficulties along these lines?

[Janito]

The abandon with which some here use nitric acid gives me the willies. 

 

Same here when I watch chefs sloshing liquid nitrogen around with no gloves or eye protection.

 

I once dropped a kidney that had been in liquid nitrogen - shattered into shards, but that's for another forum.

[lyndon]

I don't see the connection between Liquid nitrogen and nitric acid, anymore than I see a connection between the gaseous nitrogen we breath all the time and nitric acid

 

Personally, having worked extensively with nitric acid, I don't see the dangers(although they are there) anywhere near as great as the risk of fire for the varnish as a whole. Of course you don't want to spill it on yourself, or very importantly add it too quickly or too much so it froths up and escapes its container. And the fumes probably aren't too good for you.

[David Burgess]

One can make small batches of varnish fairly consistently, but a lot depends on even heating, and the immersion level of the thermometer so it reads accurately. On most good thermometers, the immersion level for accurate readings is specified.

 

If one wants repeatable results, one of the last things you want to do is place a pot of varnish directly on the burner. There will be a huge temperature gradient between varnish which is close to the contact point of the pot to the burner, and the varnish in the rest of the container.

[lyndon]

If you're using a water bath and not heating any higher than boiling water, its a lot simpler, although many people here seem to think it neccessary to heat resin much hotter, which can dramatically increases fire risk IMO

[Christopher Jacoby]

There are good reasons to heat resin hotter, depending on your desired end product, but yeah, it does increase the fire risk.

[FredN]

The resin i  use in my varnish is fossil copal which is becoming very scarce so i've got my process down to using around 10 grams of resin in a run. This will be enough to do ca 3-4 violins. Once the procedure becomes  routine, small batches give you a chance to vary things.  fred

[lyndon]

I just had to make a batch of varnish for the clavichord I am building's soundboard. I didn't weigh anything (I mixed by volume) but ended up 1/4 filling a large size peanut butter jar and dissolving the resin and oil in Turps in a water bath. I definetly wouldn't reccomend trying a larger batch without a larger jar, the fire risk rises exponentially the more full the jar is when its heated, of course raw resin is less flammable than resin dissolved in turps.