Body modes as violin sound equalizer

[Patrick KREIT]

For Science, chance is nothing but ignorance! It is perfectly possible to tune a violin’s mode frequencies just where you want them and even to reproduce the signature of one of Stradivari’s or Guarneri’s finest instruments using wood with totally different characteristics.  The research involved is not rocket science, but know-how and practice are necessary.

www.kreitpatrick.com

[Don Noon]

Because Don Noon gets his plates arched the right way (they are light and strong) he is also "lucky" and gets very clear peaks even if he sets them on the higher end, like Il Cannone and the Ex Vieuxtemps DG's.

A lot of the "light and strong" comes from the properties of the wood, which is generally on the light and stiff side of what is out there.  The archings I do a little different every time, usually without templates (although that may be changing soon).

 

I tend to use a stiff center bout area on the back plate, and have been using reverse graduation (i.e. thinner in the center) for the top plate, which I believe gives a wide frequency separation between the B1- and B1+ modes.  I sortof like the way that arrangement works out, playing-wise.  But that isn't the whole story, or probably even the most important part of the story.  And it's really tough to reach valid conclusions about tone by looking at impact response plots.  My 10 and 12 charts look kinda similar, but they don't sound similar to me.  They're all different. Matching the signature modes of a Strad is not all that difficult, but that's not going to make it sound like a Strad.

 

I don't think Hutchins necessarily mixed up A1 and B1-.  She probably knew the difference.  But latching onto A1 as a reference point for anything appears to be technically silly, as it is defined by the internal volume shape, and usually has near zero acoustic output.

[David Burgess]

For Science, chance is nothing but ignorance!.

www.kreitpatrick.com

I will heartily disagree! Chance outcomes can be heavily calculated, like the outcomes of flipping a coin one time, or ten thousand times.

One could theoretically flip a coin ten thousand times, and it will always come up the same, but that outcome is extremely unlikely.

[Peter K-G]

Thanks for your replay

 

Don, you know your own violins and of course I can't tell how they sound nor how they are to play, from the spectras. I saw the difference in the spectras of Violin 10 & 12 as I pointed out. I have also listened to some of your samples, made analyzes too. From your gallery (#5 & #7) I made the assessment that the arching is "right", Cremonese style.

 

For now I'm following deltas of B1- and B1+ (Hz and dB). A0 is kind of analyzed for the moment (volume, rib height and arching style as prevously posted).

The dipp between them (Hz & dB)  is interesting to look at. I'm developing the idea after learning how the modes where split on Violin 4.

[Peter K-G]

A thought experiment: Lets say we have a 1000 master built violins at hand. Then we pick the 10 best out of these through a "very smart process". The experts say that there are about ten really great Strads tonally around. I'd say these ten instruments would aappear as great much by chance and not much more than that.  

 

I probably couldn't pick out the best ones by listening, even less wich is a Strad or not. My passion is the emotions aroused in me when a master like Itzhak Perlman makes a divine perfomance on his Strad like this:

 

 

And further talks about his Strad (2:40):

 

 

This makes me want to believe that there is actually some more to discover. Great sounding instruments does not necessarily mean that the violinist fall in love with it and perform almost beyond whats possible. I'm searching for the the special kind of beautiful completeness that almost hurt to listen to.

[Patrick KREIT]

I will heartily disagree! Chance outcomes can be heavily calculated, like the outcomes of flipping a coin one time, or ten thousand times.

One could theoretically flip a coin ten thousand times, and it will always come up the same, but that outcome is extremely unlikely.

 

 

When a coin is tossed, statistics give us the result on the number of tosses. Where violins are concerned, it is impossible to make 1000 violins in order to obtain valid statistics:  it would be too expensive! 

 

 

www.kreitpatrick.com

[Patrick KREIT]

Don Noon.

 

It is impossible to compare the sound of a modern luthier’s violin with that heard in a recording of a Stradivari or Guarneri, because all recordings have passed through the hands of a sound engineer (delay, echo, reverb, bass-medium-high frequencies, equalizer, compression and normalization on different tracks). This is why Fritz was right to set up the comparison between old and modern instruments in a hotel room.

www.kreitpatrick.com

[David Burgess]

When a coin is tossed, statistics give us the result on the number of tosses.

 

www.kreitpatrick.com

Kinda sorta, but not really. They only define a range of probability and possibility, on something like a coin toss.

 

Fiddle modifications may or may not do better than a coin toss, but without factoring this in, how are you going to have any clue about the real outcome?

[Patrick KREIT]

Because I have invested 40 years in research on the violin:  32 years to understand it and 8 years to verify it all and write a book explaining it.

 

 

www.kreitpatrick.com

[Anders Buen]

For Science, chance is nothing but ignorance! It is perfectly possible to tune a violin’s mode frequencies just where you want them and even to reproduce the signature of one of Stradivari’s or Guarneri’s finest instruments using wood with totally different characteristics.  The research involved is not rocket science, but know-how and practice are necessary.

www.kreitpatrick.com

Yes, and I think some of the statistical data showing how precisely, or maybe more appropriate: how imprecisely that can be done is mine, prestented here on the MN.

Neither I nor you have put our theriest to test in the VSA competition, so we haven't proved any improved abilities. To most makers I'd believe we appear as dilettants.

Personally I know that good contemporary makers make instruments with their signature modes in the same region as good Strads or del Gesus, but just because the fundamentals played on these violins may be quite similar in trength does not mean that these sound the same, or have the same playing qualities.

I think most modern makers work very consistantly. But some keep a high reputation even if they build different models and types of violins. I do not think exactly the same recipy is the route to sucess for all these. I think your Idea is more in line with one simple recipy linking instrument quality and tap tones. It just isn't that easy! There is more to it.

[Anders Buen]

Because I have invested 40 years in research on the violin:  32 years to understand it and 8 years to verify it all and write a book explaining it.

 

 

www.kreitpatrick.com

Enter competitions and see if you violins are superior! :-)

[jezzupe]

Because I have invested 40 years in research on the violin:  32 years to understand it and 8 years to verify it all and write a book explaining it.

 

 

www.kreitpatrick.com

No offence, but that does not mean you are correct

[Anders Buen]

I probably couldn't pick out the best ones by listening, even less wich is a Strad or not. My passion is the emotions aroused in me when a master like Itzhak Perlman makes a divine perfomance on his instrument.

 

This makes me want to believe that there is actually some more to discover. Great sounding instruments does not necessarily mean that the violinist fall in love with it and perform almost beyond whats possible. I'm searching for the the special kind of beautiful completeness that almost hurt to listen to.

Many of us share your passion here.

[Patrick KREIT]

Enter competitions and see if you violins are superior! :-)

I will, when you do!

[Anders Buen]

I will, when you do!

I entered my first competition at 17 of age, a Hardangerfiddle. It was my third. I became 9th out of 32, and I almost got a medal for it. The fiddle wasn't good sounding and the fingerboard was in contact with the understrings. The fiddle simply wasn't finished and settled in. It had some nice decorations on it. My father did the drawings. They gave us top scores on some of the judged parts.

The inlay work design was mine, and papas decorations was for that fiddle alone as well. So there were some original designs on it. Only one have ever won a gold medal. It was for a copy, a practice we strongly disagree with.

I may enter again when I have built an inlaid version and I have made the complete instrument. The one we entered was built on a back and ribs bought half made from germany.

I do not think I will enter the VSA competition, because I haven't planned to make violins. But I do regrad some chinese built violins, varnish them and sell them. Learning experiences.

[jezzupe]

I entered my first competition at 17 of age, a Hardangerfiddle. It was my third. I became 9th out of 32, and I almost got a medal for it. The fiddle wasn't good sounding and the fingerboard was in contact with the understrings. The fiddle simply wasn't finished and settled in. It had some nice decorations on it. My father did the drawings. They gave us top scores on some of the judged parts.

The inlay work design was mine, and papas decorations was for that fiddle alone as well. So there were some original designs on it. Only one have ever won a gold medal. It was for a copy, a practice we strongly disagree with.

I may enter again when I have built an inlaid version and I have made the complete instrument. The one we entered was built on a back and ribs bought half made from germany.

I do not think I will enter the VSA competition, because I haven't planned to make violins. But I do regrad some chinese built violins, varnish them and sell them. Learning experiences.

Kick ass! Pff' most kids these days are playing video games in moms basement, with their kids!!!

[violins88]

Patrick,

 

I have been following violin research for 30 years. Not only the USA research. I knew about M. Schleske's work years ago. Has your name and research been posted anywhere before you wrote the book?  I will be glad to stand corrected if you have published research over the last decade or beforef.  Please tell me where.

 

Thanks

[Michael_Molnar]

Great story, Anders. I bet the girls followed a good looking guy like you. (Grins)

Mike

[Peter K-G]

Many of us share your passion here.

 

I know, otherwise we would not be here on this forum, sharing experience and arguing. Sharing this passion is why discussions tend to be very emotional.

 

We all have our own experiences and ways of getting results. My way (many other do the same here) is to gather reliable results by reading a lot of publications, testing others and my own ideas and the put them out to be tested by others.

 

Science?:

 

-> Collecting data

-> building a tree of reference of informations 

-> do experiments

-> discover new things.

 

Time (and Money) is the problem when doing Violin research, we don't live long enough to do enough experiments.

There is only three options. Rely on others work, devote a lifetime to it or be a genius. (the forth would be to find the big secret )

 

Where I stand now is at the point where I'm discovering new things (I started 1997) And here comes the danger in the whole science thing - What if I have taken the wrong path!!! Everything I'm doing would be based on a house of cards, scary!

 

What can one do about that? Frame of reference is the key, meaning the purpose of the study. For me it is not to make the best violins in the World that are highly priced in VSA competitions (Would be fun but I dont see it realistic)

 

My frame of reference is;

Be able to repeat and make violins act/sound the way I want them in between the higher and the lower end like Titian & Plowden. Il Cannone and Ex Vieuxtemps are special cases that I might want to discuss later.

 

When building a tree of informations I have been able to reduce the gathered informations to three people: Hutchins - Don Noon - Patrick Kreit  and In that order (Anders your informations falls under Don's)

 

Hutchins is not with us anymore. Both main sources is on my started topic, so I can continue my action research, hope you stay with me. Please be respectful to Mr. Kreit I would like him to continue on Maestronet also. (12 copy Betts, that's serious doing experiments)  Please do also respect commercial IP. I see his book as valuable as the Strad 3D. They are both very interesting.

 

More to come I hope...

[violins88]

I feel confident that if Patrick Kreit's violins are good, they will EVENTUALLY be recognized. We just don't know if it will be in his lifetime.

[Patrick KREIT]

Patrick,

 

I have been following violin research for 30 years. Not only the USA research. I knew about M. Schleske's work years ago. Has your name and research been posted anywhere before you wrote the book?  I will be glad to stand corrected if you have published research over the last decade or beforef.  Please tell me where.

 

Thanks

 

 

No publication preceded the book because I am independent and not bound by the “publish or perish” rule. My own research was conducted at my personal expense and not cut-and-pasted from others’. I waited many years in order to verify and validate what I wrote: eight and a half years up to the definitive second edition and completion of 12 violins, copies of the Betts. I am updating an addenda for purchasers of the book. Incidentally, it is selling well in China: in 5 years, we shall see what they have been able to do with it.

www.kreitpatrick.com

[violins88]

No publication preceded the book because I am independent and not bound by the “publish or perish” rule. My own research was conducted at my personal expense and not cut-and-pasted from others’. I waited many years in order to verify and validate what I wrote: eight and a half years up to the definitive second edition and completion of 12 violins, copies of the Betts. I am updating an addenda for purchasers of the book. Incidentally, it is selling well in China: in 5 years, we shall see what they have been able to do with it.

www.kreitpatrick.com

Well Patrick, 500 USD for your book is a high price. I think people spending that much money want to have some assurances, other than from you, that it is useful. I could recommend some strategies for you, if you email me privately. You have done a lot of work. It reminds me of a friend who was in divorce court. He thought that, since he was smarter than his wife, and the outcome of the case should be obvious, based on the facts, that he could represent himself in court. He lost big time. My wife pointed out to me that, well, the judge is a lawyer. He was probably insulted that this guy coming into his court without a lawyer. You have come into the court of experienced violin makers without adequate groundwork, other than your book. You could have been building relationships all this time, as well as working on your research.  Sure, "I did it my way" must be fun, but also not really too productive.

[violins88]

Hello Patrick,

 

I visited your website, but I could not find your address. Is it there somewhere?

 

Thanks

 

John

[Carl Stross]

I probably couldn't pick out the best ones by listening, even less wich is a Strad or not. My passion is the emotions aroused in me when a master like Itzhak Perlman makes a divine perfomance on his Strad like this:

 

 

And further talks about his Strad (2:40):

 

 

This makes me want to believe that there is actually some more to discover. Great sounding instruments does not necessarily mean that the violinist fall in love with it and perform almost beyond whats possible. I'm searching for the the special kind of beautiful completeness that almost hurt to listen to.

Thank you for the Bruch with Perlman ! Made my day.

[Patrick KREIT]

Hello Patrick,

 

I visited your website, but I could not find your address. Is it there somewhere?

 

Thanks

 

John

 

Page 3 : Contact