Whats the worst English violin you`ve ever seen or heard.

[fiddlecollector]

From Dave Slights suggestion. I doubt mine was the worst looking but i doubt anyone could have beat it for the worst tone.On a slightly different note i have noticed some similarities between the scrolls on some amateurish English and American scrolls. I guess the makers just moved over there and we were happy to get rid of them.

[fiddlecollector]

Cant seem to upload anything???

[Dave Slight]

I have an absolute corker to add, but it will be a few days before I can get a picture of it to upload.

[jacobsaunders]

Don’t forget that the occasional (adjective) American reads these forums, gentlemen

[Jerry Lynn]

Ha! I don't mind so much Jacob. Amateurish English and American scrolls can be charming though.

[jacobsaunders]

I realise that I’m probably on a bit of a hiding to nothing on this subject, but…..

I have a bit of a soft spot for the “cheap” English violins of this period. I think one should put them in context a bit, since we blockaded the continental ports from 1793 until 1814 v. the French 1st Republic/Empire. Various wars against Napoleon had immense significance for the development of violin making across Europe. It for instance, marked the end of Füssen as a vm. centre of influence and Austria-Hungary went bankrupt in 1811 with various effects, amongst other things. In England, one sees “cheap” violins being made for the domestic public in the late 18th C/early 19th. C., a branch which seems too completely die out after the end of this blockade. From 1820ish, we see English violin dealers importing and labelling/stamping Mittenwald instruments, and subsequently the (even cheaper) Markneukirchen/Schönbach wares for the less wealthy public. 19th century globalisierung, if you like. That early English bow making went off at a bit of a tangent cf. European bows, is probably also largely due to this political situation.

Although I have no empirical data, and am only going on “body of work” (heaven forbid!), I think one can make out a “school” or perhaps better “tradition”, although there is a slightly blurred line where self taught amateur finishes and professional starts.

To outline the general features my suggestion would be: Painted purfling (although some have been subsequently purfeled), Free rib bending on the back (without mould), although corner blocks of a sort. Indeed the inside work sometimes looks like the wood has been gleaned from the nearest building site skip. If in original condition, a carved rather than stuck in bass bar. A top block with the neck glued onto the top rib, often with a wood screw through the top block into the neck root.

I find it hard to despise these violins and indeed find some quite pretty. Many makers seem to be unrecorded. I, for instance have one that is stamped on the outside of the back, below the button “G. Mathews PM”. I have been unable to find any information on Mr. Mathews whatsoever, and wonder what “PM” is supposed to mean. Did he only work afternoons?

[Bernie R]

<p>

I, for instance have one that is stamped on the outside of the back, below the button “G. Mathews PM”. I have been unable to find any information on Mr. Mathews whatsoever, and wonder what “PM” is supposed to mean. Did he only work afternoons?

I think "Piano Maker". And there was a Richard Mathews making pianos at 195 Marylebone Road, London in around 1860.

[fiddlecollector]

There was a violinist called G. Matthews in Derbyshire mentioned in a 1902 newspaper.They had a habit of stamping or scratching their names on instruments.I assume PM could mean Piano maker though or prime minister!

[jacobsaunders]

Thanks, both of you. The fiddle looks like it is +/- 1800ish though

[martin swan]

Here's my offering .... I had a worse one with a sort of rolled edge, no attempt at purfling whatsoever, but I can't find photos.

This one had a scroll that leant so far back it was impossible to put it in a case. Typically the wood was first class, the sound was also excellent!

[fiddlecollector]

Martin how did you upload the photos?? Its driving me mad!

[Brad Dorsey]

Occasionally I see English violins labeled "The Maidstone" that were commercially exported to the United States. They are pretty bad.

[martin swan]

Martin how did you upload the photos?? Its driving me mad!

The system seems to be very cranky at the moment - the only way is to use the right-hand of the "browse" windows, post the post, then go into edit, use the right hand browse box again to a dd another photo, post the post etc .....Persistent is my middle name (actually John is my middle name)!

[fiddlecollector]

Martin, thanks that worked though rather a pain to do.

Your violin is interesting, i would have like to have seen the size of the neck block he used to carve that, could probably have made two. Excellent sound a bonus .

Mine had plates that were like 1.5mm thick all over,front and back and with no sign of ever being regraduated. The edges were around 2mm thick, inked on purfling. But the scroll is something i see alot in violins described as amateurish late 18th/early 19th century American.Ive seen it on cellos as well.

Brad ,those are commonplace at auction over here still ,there must have been 100,000 or more made by Murdoch & Co.They are probably imported from Jacobs favourite place Schonbach so not really English. Other regularly seen are ones from the London Violin company and Rushworth and Draper ,where some of those can be quite nice.

There was a TV program over here called Grand Designs a few years back and some one was renovating a warehouse type building into a home. It was formally supposed to be the London Violin Company. Very high ceilings .

[Mountain Luthier]

Someone suggested that it was American...but it bears and English

label...but wait! It has another label underneath. I can wait :-I.

[Will L]

My first thought was PM might equal Pall Mall, but that seems to have been a bit high rent for even a more known violin maker.

[Ben Hebbert]

Occasionally I see English violins labeled "The Maidstone" that were commercially exported to the United States. They are pretty bad.

Brad, you beat me to it - except that I think a lot of these were imported from Germany, and there was no consistent supply of them, as a result Maidstones are simply whatever was supplied in bulk order for the cheapest at the time. I think the most amazing thing about them is that you expect a certain quality when you look at them, and are always disappointed. I say that, but occasionally I've seen one that does do a bit better. They were made to be entry level, so I suppose you can't blame them for that.

[Dave Slight]

Here's my offering .... I had a worse one with a sort of rolled edge, no attempt at purfling whatsoever, but I can't find photos.

This one had a scroll that leant so far back it was impossible to put it in a case. Typically the wood was first class, the sound was also excellent!

That is quite a scroll! Might not fit in a case, but probably fit in a sack ok! From the look of the body it does seem that it would sound well enough, and a decent looking varnish too.

[martin swan]

A couple of years back someone rang up and arranged a visit to try out violins - he said he would bring his current instrument for comparison. I asked what it was ..... "a Maidstone". Excellent! I thought I would make a sale without the slightest difficulty, since every Maidstone I had ever come across (dozens of the bloody things) had been unutterably rubbish.

But I learnt my lesson - as soon as I played this one I knew I was lost - amazing sound! It was a pathetic 10th rate German fiddle too ...

The customer went away with his Maidstone, reassured that spending 10 times as much would not bring him any improvement in tone!

[Addie]

I hope, by adding a Canadian entry (or two), I’m not going too far afield.

[Addie]

Entry#2

[Addie]

OK I give up on the photos.

[Addie]

1

[Ben Hebbert]

My first thought was PM might equal Pall Mall, but that seems to have been a bit high rent for even a more known violin maker.

John Barrett, a violin maker in London in the early eighteenth-century bought three houses in Pall Mall (Crown Court) in 1728... so nothing's impossible!

[Ben Hebbert]

A couple of years back someone rang up and arranged a visit to try out violins - he said he would bring his current instrument for comparison. I asked what it was ..... "a Maidstone". Excellent! I thought I would make a sale without the slightest difficulty, since every Maidstone I had ever come across (dozens of the bloody things) had been unutterably rubbish.

But I learnt my lesson - as soon as I played this one I knew I was lost - amazing sound! It was a pathetic 10th rate German fiddle too ...

The customer went away with his Maidstone, reassured that spending 10 times as much would not bring him any improvement in tone!

I can confirm that completely. Seen some really good ones, but nothing like the hundreds of utterly rubbish ones.