Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Is this a J. Rocca?


GoldenPlate
 Share

Recommended Posts

Not a chance... not even a chance its worth $10K either... (quite nice in its own way, all the same!)

Ben, I talked with the owner and he said there are brands on the top block and on the back next to the bass side corner block. Frown what I could find online it does not appear to me to be made by Enrico Marchetti, his Rocca copies seem to have brands in similar places but his f holes are much different.

Do you think is is probably a French copie?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dan,

I think that the level of knowledge needed to go looking for brands on the top block is enough knowledge to know you'll do better selling this at a proper auction, or taking it to a dealer IF its genuine - what's the story? Why be lazy for the sake of a few $10,000? The guy is in New York, so there's Tarisio and Christie's within a cab-ride from him, it's not like knows nothing and not like he's in the boonies.

Brands are a real hazard. They are really easy to fake, but we tend to give them more credibility than a label. More especially, expect to see brands on a Rocca on the outside - where they are UNDER the original varnish. Those are much harder to make convincing. An internal brand is straight onto bare wood, and because it compresses the wood, it preserves any patina that is already there.

I think its a nice violin - not sure where it comes from, but it exudes quality, which again makes a spurious attribution more seductive. I don't even think that $10,000 is necessarily an outrageous retail price for it if we knew what it really was. My first port of call would be makers working in major German cities in the 1880s-1930s. Stuttgart, Berlin, that sort of thing, maybe not 100 miles from something like an Otto Mockel.

If you don't smell a rat on this one, its because the rat is so firmly stuck up your nose that your sensory organs have packed up. :) (For the record, I do think you smell a rat!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Ben - I really like this violin, and if it has a good sound I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a shop for more than it sold for on Ebay.

It also raises an interesting philosophical point - is a violin worth less because it's pretending to be something it isn't?

At the last Bromptons sale I gravitated towards a bow which had a fake FN Voirin brand, and a few Voirin features. It was a fantastic bow, lovely weight, balance, tone, amazing action. It might have been Mirecourt but more likely German. I didn't buy it because for me it was worth considerably less with a fake brand than with no brand at all. if it hadn't had the Voirin brand I would have bid the price it sold for, and been very pleased to have found a "one in a million" bow.

How stupid is that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because I suffer from insomnia and had too much free time tonight, I thought I would point something out for some who, like Dan, have indicated mild curiosity as to the motives and/or origin of the OP, who constantly starts this sort of "what is this violin" thread for no apparent reason.

It is not a secret the OP Dan has referred to had as a previous maestronet user ID: lalofrank2011. Under that user name he also started his MN career by linking to certain eBay violin listings...until Martin helpfully pointed out that the same character is actually himself an eBay seller with an interesting track record, to put it mildly. Please see:

http://www.maestrone..._20#entry512120

What makes this Rocca saga mildly interesting is that ihaformosa / lalofrank2011 / [et al] tried to sell the same "Rocca" on eBay in December of last year, albeit with a different label and year, for $450. Item #180758964354. The same seller has sold "Chanot's" and Ceruti's" and other "beautiful" and "rare" violins which are at times nice, but not the genuine article.

I note in closing that it is also public information that Ihaformosa's previous ebay ID was kennylintwn717. Kenny or Ken and Lin are obvious; TWN stands for Taiwan. Formosa is the old Portuguese name for Taiwan. Lin is a common Taiwanese name; it actually means "forest". A good name for an ebay seller of nice, though inauthentic, violins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Stephen, you may remember me from an earlier post :) I see we both have one thing in common, insomnia. The one difference between us is that you are a very bright man and write extremely well, where as I am all not that bright and do not write well at all. I do enjoy your posts as you are not only very bright but a very fine violinist, and I have learned many things from your posts. I have not been to Chicago for many years now, but do remember going downtown to Lewis & Son and visiting with many of the other old violin shops. It was always much fun as I was able to play on many great Italian violins, and was never even shown a German violin. Times have changed. Looking forward to you posts for 2013 and do have a Happy New Year! OT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah happy days .... I'd forgotten all of that. I used to try to flag up a lot of this kind of skullduggery on Ebay, before various Maestronet members objected on the grounds that I was promoting my own business. I duly stopped.

However, a quick look at the background of this listing and the seller's previous items reveals that Stephen is right, and I must therefore conclude that this violin is a "genuine fake"!

Stephen, I would just want to correct a couple of points.

I don't believe there's any actual proof that maestronet members lalofrank2011 and caspace are one and the same - their style of posting is remarkably similar, and lalofrank disappeared precisely when caspace appeared, but that could be coincidence.

There were two Chanots, a "George Chanot" which I don't recall but which was the subject of the thread you have linked to, and a Joseph Chanot, sold by Bromptons as "by Joseph A Chanot" - without further research I don't think it's accurate to call it "not the genuine article".

http://www.bromptons...ondon-1906.html

and my original post : http://www.maestrone...joseph-achanot/

Here is a typical lalofrank2011 post, linking to a violin he was himself selling on Ebay : http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/324089-ebay-maurizio-bissolotti-violin/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin, thank you for your reply; points duly noted.

I wonder what you and others might opine as to the seller's "Michele deconet"? I note your previous discussion of "moody" photos.

Penny for your thoughts -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/old-Italian-violin-Michele-Deconet-1783-/261139742386?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccd243eb2&nma=true&si=CA52E%2BFJkUoc04KJylaX4JUfELM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin, thank you for your reply; points duly noted.

I wonder what you and others might opine as to the seller's "Michele deconet"? I note your previous discussion of "moody" photos.

Penny for your thoughts -

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

Steve, take a look at the 4th pic down on the right, the scroll.... looks like the grain lines run from the neck to the scroll. Is this a fake graft or a very well done one?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve, take a look at the 4th pic down on the right, the scroll.... looks like the grain lines run from the neck to the scroll. Is this a fake graft or a very well done one?

I wondered the same thing; can't zoom in much but the grain does seem to continue. Moreover, shouldn't there be peg re-bushing on a violin of deConet vintage? Also, why no frontal shot of the scroll (to see the graft better) and why all the mood lighting. Also, I note a pattern of sellers with at or near 100% bidding activity participating in these same listings and re-listings again and again. Again, the question is "why?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you think of the old Romans you can call it Romania; but I'm not sure, if they had violins. I don't know, if Rumania is related to rumours (I heard about a land far, far away..), but if you want to see a violin from this country, look at this 'Rocca'. They are also branded 'Scarampella', 'Celani', sometimes 'E.H.Roth'

Other examples here:

www.petzkolophonium.com/index.php?id=88

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...