Congratulations to Pahdah Hound

[lyndon]

there are two common ways to write a 4, this above is one of them, perhaps the less commonly used, the second being an L with a line bisecting the middle of the bottom of the L, as to your faded line above the 4 that could be anything, perhaps all the writing is on top of very faded original writing, who knows

heres an example of different ways of writing 4s; including examples of the one on the label

[arglebargle]

why do my posts about the 4 not being a 9 keep getting deleted, how can we have a rational discussion if only one biased side of the arguement is presented???

Because that number is quite clearly a 9.

Anyone without some kind of petty ax to grind could see that it is a 9 and not.................

oh.

It's Lyndon.

You are right, Lyndon. It's a 4.

Good detective work there, Mr. L!

[lyndon]

you didnt look at my link, did you argue bargle, it funny how clouded peoples perceptions can be when the worlds most interesting man is involved

[T Ford]

Edit, off topic.

[arglebargle]

you didnt look at my link, did you argue bargle, it funny how clouded peoples perceptions can be when the worlds most interesting man is involved

Of course I looked at your link, and you are 100% correct.

It is a 4. No doubt about it. A 4 from dawn to dusk. Only a fool, a blind fool, could mistake that 4 for a 9.

Again, Lyndon, you are correct. It is a 4.

Thank you for clearing my clouded judgement and for bringing this dastardly man to justice.

[Charles Hansen]

there are two common ways to write a 4, this above is one of them, perhaps the less commonly used, the second being an L with a line bisecting the middle of the bottom of the L, as to your faded line above the 4 that could be anything, perhaps all the writing is on top of very faded original writing, who knows

heres an example of different ways of writing 4s; including examples of the one on the label

Sorry Lyndon, you are defeating your own argument. In the first place all of your numbers were made with a felt pen. Go back and make them with a fountain pen. Not the kind with a cartridge, either -- one that you dip in the inkwell (it's 1939, remember?). Now let's look at the entire label:

First of all, notice how many problems he is having with the pen in the very first character, the "3". The middle "leg" of the "3" is very faint, while the top loop of the "3" has a large blob of ink. Next, take a look at the "1" in the serial number. It is much thicker than any of the other numbers, so either he made it with two strokes (because the first stroke was too faint), or he had just dipped the pen in the inkwell and it was nearly about to make another blob.

Next take a look at the "7" and the "2". It is very clear that Bryant is capable of making sharp corners when he wants to. There is even a very small sharp vertical stroke at the very start of the "7". Do you really suppose that someone who writes carefully executed sharp corners on his "7's" and "2's" would make a lazy, rounded stroke in this "4"? I don't.

Finally, let's look at the number in question, the "9". First of all, look at the top of the vertical stroke. It is clear that he made the loop in the "9" first, then in one continuous motion, came back down to make the vertical line. The result is a very narrow loop where the large loop joins the vertical stroke. And now you can see also, that the large loop in the "9" has a faint curved line joining the top of the vertical stroke with the rest of the loop.

Everyone else here sees a "9". You see a conspiracy.

So please explain the conspiracy. You seem to believe that this is factory-made German fiddle that somebody put a fake label into. And how many violins have you made, exactly? Yet several luthiers and even people that have examined this very fiddle in their own hands have declared it to be a genuine Bryant. You have never even seen a Bryant, let alone hold this fiddle in your hands. And we are to believe that this "forgery" was so clumsy so as to have made up nonsense dates and serial numbers.

This is why your posts get deleted Lyndon. It is obvious that you have a problem with everything and anything that Pahdah does. Give it a rest, before you are kicked out of the forum.

[lyndon]

they had fountain pens in 1934 and they didnt need to be dipped in an inkwell except to charge up the resevoir once in a while, and this writing looks rather uncharacteristic of any kind of fountain pen with anything but a ball tip, which they did have in 1934, they werent using feathers in 1934 perhaps you should look that up.

the problem with your whole theory is 4s can look quite different, but 9s all seem to have one thing in common, the top part is rounded or oval, not at all squared off or trapezoidal.

what i said about american fiddles is a lot of makers bought factory white violins from germany and regraduated, varnished them and inserted their label, this particular american maker appears to have a reputation at least for hand making them

by the way in this case if you want to talk conspiracy theories, the conspiracy theory is that its a 9 not a 4 like it looks

[violins88]

Hello, was wondering if anyone on this board would know the year in which C. Woodcock died? Thanks, OT

It looks like 1444, but of course it must be 1999.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I do think that's enough. Everyone has had a chance to make their point. Move on.

[Charles Hansen]

Edit: Deleted off-topic post.

I think Arglebargle is correct. As Lyndon's grandfather's fountain pen had a spherical nib, it is now clear to me that indeed, what I mistook for a "9" is actually a "4". The serial number is out of sequence and therefore the instrument is a fake. I feel sorry for the person who won the auction.

[lyndon]

im not talking about the ball point pen, im talking about the standard fountain pen, like my grandfathers ones i inherited, a bladder inside which you filled with ink worked just like the cartridges on modern fountain pens, and they only had to be refilled about as often as modern fountain pen cartridges are replaced, when im talking of a ball tip, im talking of a ball shape split in the middle for the ink to flow through, not a rotating ball like a modern ball point and not the standard flat tip fountain pen type we normally see which is obviously not what this signer used. your description of fountain pens is off by at least 100 years, chansen, they had evolved a lot by the 1930s

its the fact that these letters dont look like a standard fountain pen led me to speculate it looked like a felt pen, in the previous thread, even if it was done with a ball tip fountain pen, you would expect the lines to be finer, theres no evidence of a flat tip fountain pen which would produce thinner and thicker lines depending on the angle. etc

heres a short history of the fountain pen which dates back to 1702, and was "perfected" by this inventor in 1884, these are all pens that hold the ink in a resevoir, and dont have to be continually dipped in an ink well, like a feather

http://inventors.abo...ly/aa100897.htm

[Will L]

I love stuff like this. Not the arguments that sometimes seem absurd, but the little things we might never get a chance to contemplate. Not that we can know the truth with assurance.

Here is Bryant, around 65, near the end of a distinguished career. He has a sense of style to his numbers showing an attempt to add a little artistry. But he is 65, and after a life of hard use his hands don't allow perfect calligraphy. I'm guessing, because that's what I love to do, that the label was already glued on when he wrote the date. I'm assuming that, because I always write the numbers BEFORE I glue in the label, so that when I mess up the writing I reach for another label. Bryant didn't reach for another label. And now, after 3/4s of a century, Bryant has given us something to ponder. Thanks, Ole.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Rats... The most useful thing I got out of this discussion was the history of writing instruments that has now been deleted.

[Charles Hansen]

Rats... The most useful thing I got out of this discussion was the history of writing instruments that has now been deleted.

OK, OK, Jeffrey! You win! Here is the link to Wikipedia on ballpoint pens:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballpoint_pen

Not exactly on "point", but interesting in its own way. I was surprised that the US guy who stole the Argentinian patent didn't get sued by the companies that bothered to obtain a manufacturing license.

[zefir68]

There must be a fascinating study somewhere in this thread about how the finer points of a handwriting sample can be so minutely examined by someone who is extremely careful with punctuation. How will future historians interpret the intended point of a run on sentence? ;-)

[Charles Hansen]

I'm guessing, because that's what I love to do, that the label was already glued on when he wrote the date. I'm assuming that, because I always write the numbers BEFORE I glue in the label, so that when I mess up the writing I reach for another label. Bryant didn't reach for another label.

Will, as a luthier perhaps you can clear something up for a total novice. I hinted at that in my post of the first page about Bryant's child's fiddle with a LOB of 12-1/2". Specifically, one can't really label the violin when it is totally finished very easily. You would have to pre-write the label and insert it through the f-hole to be glued, which doesn't seem like a great idea. So presumably the top is still off when the label is glued in place (either pre-written, as in your case, or not, as apparently in the case of Bryant).

(But I don't really know. Once I had a Gibson ES-345 from the early '60s with the "Vari-Tone" rotary switch that went bad. Gibson sent me a complete replacement wiring harness, and I had to remove the old one and install the new one partly through the (quite a bit larger than a violin's!) f-holes and partly through the hole for the bridge pickup -- but that went through a solid block of wood designed to reduce feedback. Not very fun -- it involved a great deal of fishing around with string as I recall...)

So now you have to glue the top on and then apply the finish. And surely there must be some more fine detail work that happens at the very end. I have no idea how long that might take. I had guessed that the child's fiddle which might have been a favor or a gift for someone had been done in his spare time. So there could have been a much longer than normal time between when the label was applied and when the instrument was completed and sold (or given away).

Do luthiers ever assign serial numbers in the order that the commission was made, rather than when the instrument was (nearly) complete? And how long does it (roughly) take you from the time you apply the label to the time that the violin is delivered.?

Thanks for answering some totally novice questions!

[Charles Hansen]

There must be a fascinating study somewhere in this thread about how the finer points of a handwriting sample can be so minutely examined by someone who is extremely careful with punctuation. How will future historians interpret the intended point of a run on sentence? ;-)

I can answer your first question quite easily -- I am extremely neurotic. After making the post, I noticed in the illustration that the caption near the bottom has a "typographic" (curly) quote on the left side of the "1", but an ordinary quote (like an inch mark) on the right side. I actually debated with myself if I should re-do the entire illustration in order to correct the error...

I'm afraid I can't help you with the second question.

[vathek]

I've used vintage fountain pens for years. They, like violins, have good days and bad days, or may need cleaning, or the nib may get out of adjustment or the ink may just not be cooperating. Also some people may have been using the same pen for forty years (things didn't wear out back then like today). Imho Lyndon is way off.

[Will L]

Re post 41: Chansen,

Others can and will answer differently, I'm sure. I put the date on the label, then glue the label in before I glue the top on. I only do that because I'm not well versed in inserting a label through the Fs, and I want mine glued in for "all time." :-) I'm not very religious about the date matching the year the violin is finished; so I might glue in the label late in 2011 and finish it in 2012. I find it hard to believe that the old guys worried much about it. On the other hand, some makers, and maybe for a competition violin, might prefer or need to be more careful. If so, I assume they'd just put in the label through the F-hole.

As to Bryant doing what I suggested, it's only a guess on my part. It could be he just didn't care about the blob of ink, or was running out of labels, or something else. Just fun to contemplate.

Serial numbers matching dates is important. I expect makers who use serial numbers would take more seriously the matter of matching everything with the actual date of finish. I expect that the more scientific among us would take this matter more seriously, too, in order to have their instruments match whatever notes they keep on each one. I have violins bought directly from living makers which have serial numbers that lead to confusion, so I suppose it's not easy to keep track, even for the most professional makers.

There are stories that some makers have pre-dated their instruments. I can't remember any of them off hand.

Re your last paragraph, I don't know. I assume every maker does things in a different way.

[Charles Hansen]

(snip)... I'm not very religious about the date matching the year the violin is finished; so I might glue in the label late in 2011 and finish it in 2012. I find it hard to believe that the old guys worried much about it....(snip)

Will, thanks very much for the detailed and informative answer! Very helpful and educational -- in fact it's post like these that keep me from getting my "real" work done... Thanks for making MaestroNet an educational (and fun!) place to hang out!

[cbouts]

[Charles Hansen]

EXCELLENT, ANDREW!

I love it. Just goes to show that everyone has their own style and way of doing things. Thanks so much for sharing!

PS -- I noticed that you deliberately positioned the bottle of paint/ink so that no competitors could steal your secrets....

[cbouts]

Oh whats in the bottle is different the outside is an old Calli waterproof calligraphy bottle - just figured no one wanted to see the $4.90 cent tag and the hillarious thumbprint on the other side the day I accidentially spilled half the bottle across my bench.

[cbouts]

The point is this: I have done the same things to my labels by accident - sometimes if I notice I hand write a label and its not quite clear enough I'll write it again before I cut it out and glue it in. Ole's fiddle looked great but I suspect the bow was possibly a viola bow? Nonetheless guys. Good auction. Give poor jeffery a rest. Holy cow batman.