Contrabasso Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I recently purchased this violin and noticed that the tag was not legible. From what I can find it seems to have resemblances to a modern Italian violin but I am no expert. Thanks in advance http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u381/cbg2012/11E78509-FA62-4629-9833-C10B0F605607-1071-0000009FB3D4EB16.jpg http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u381/cbg2012/1F8B5149-B857-431E-9485-BAB2D9FDE77C-1071-0000009FBA4410DF.jpg http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u381/cbg2012/677A4AE8-3C66-497E-A8D6-0993C3CC77C4-1071-0000009FC318BCED.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Here are some better no flash pics to show the natural color. Pretty sure the violin was made in 1926, the only legible part of the label was the date and a harp( not the one with rays). Only violins I could find with similar f holes and overall shape and figure came from the Bisiach school Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Finally got a good pic of the stamp on the label, hopefully this will give some insight to the origins Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Ok, I am now going to take a guess and hopefully someone will agree or discredit Carlo Bisiach guadagnini model Edited December 5, 2012 by Contrabasso Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hendrik Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Yep, looks just like a Carlo Bisiach. This is one of his famous posthumous violins from Germany. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hendrik Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Sorry got confused about the Bisiachs. I have never seen a Carlo Bisiach but have tried out a Leandro Bisiach from the 20s, a violin with a wonderful mellow deep sound. And beautiful to look at. This fiddle doesn't look like at all like a Leandro B, and surely not like a Carlo Bisiach either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jacob Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 It's clearly a del Gesu model. Do you mean a Bisiach based on del Gesu? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I did mean gesu thanks for the responses this far! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CCM Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Possibly revarnished. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Possibly revarnished. I have pondered that as the scroll is definately lighter in color. There is also a possibility that the neck/scroll are not original to the instrument, I'll have more updates when I get it back from the luthier and hopefully some sound responses as well. Getting it fitted with a new bridge, tailpiece, fingerboard dressing, and strings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Sorry got confused about the Bisiachs. I have never seen a Carlo Bisiach but have tried out a Leandro Bisiach from the 20s, a violin with a wonderful mellow deep sound. And beautiful to look at. This fiddle doesn't look like at all like a Leandro B, and surely not like a Carlo Bisiach either. Here is a link to A very fine Italian Violin by Leandro Bisiach in the del Gesu form http://www.liveauctioneers.com/bonhams/item/404698 And a more direct shot of the top Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Hebbert Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I reckon (though I'd be interested if I'm wrong) that its a Lyon and Healy model G.1125 Cremonatone copy of the King Joseph del Gesu. I wouldn't like to guess where it was made, they invariably look German, albeit to a non-trade model, but are reputedly French or Italian. I even wonder if they were made in the States by emigrant workers. Over the years, from 1907 into the 1930s you see the same pattern, but a variety of different hands on this model. There are other Cremonatone models, which include violins imported straight out of the Antoniazzi workshop. Don't get them confused. However, because this is not a standard "trade-fiddle" model, its easy to think it might be Italian. It's not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
puckfandan Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I have a violin by Nestor Yaroshuck PA, that I will try to dig out (why are violin cases not see through) that looks identical as far as the varnish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Thanks Ben Hebbert, that is a very interesting point. I thought it had an Antoniazzi/bisiach school look to it though I pondered it may be a lesser factory instrument. Interestingly my luthier was very impressed with the construction and stated that he was fairly certain that it would have a fine sound Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 And ironically, bisiach cremonatone https://secure.skinnerinc.com/explore/sales/2239/lots/53 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
duane88 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 nevermind... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 nevermind... Really do appreciate any feedback positive or negative. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hendrik Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 re #11 First as a qualifier: I am no expert on violins, just an enthousiast and amateur with a bit of experience and lots of interest. I am not sure the violin is a King Joseph DG copy. The ff holes are "Del Gesu style" as commonly seen but quite different from the King Joseph. http://doceric.multiply.com/photos/photo/83/50 Maybe the photographs give a wrong impression but to me this violin does not look like a Bisiach, Carlo or Leandro. I may be wrong about it being a factory fiddle but the varnish, purlfling , ff holes, scroll and overall "gestalt" to me just don't match. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LargeImage.aspx?image=/lotfinderimages/d50517/d5051737x.jpg http://robertsonviolins.com/index.php?page=carlo-bisiach-violin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carlo_Bisiach_Firenze_1938_violin_top.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Hebbert Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I spent a long time with one of these, hoping it was Italian...., so I'm being dismissive only because I've been through the same process, and the same disappointments. For what it's worth, I wouldn't imagine it was Bisiach for a second. His work is highly intelligent, and at best really evokes the original hand. Whatever this is, it has much more the feel of a good clean German/French factory fiddle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zinomaniac Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Contrabasso: Look carefully at the elongated f-holes and open C-bouts of the Bisiach-Del Gesu example you have linked to. If you compare these two features to your violin I think you will see that yours is not based on Del Gesu. I am also an amateur and could be wrong! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Many thanks for the responses, I am learning a great deal already finish is not original! I should have posted the links with more similarities so here is one from Antoniazzi http://www.amati.com/violin/violin-instrument/an-italian-violin-by-romeo-antoniazzi-milan-1912.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Hebbert Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 zinomaniac, hendrik - just to clarify the point on this, the King Joseph was a particularly important sale for Lyon and Healy, at $12,000 when they sold it from the Hawley Collection in 1903. In fact the coup of getting the entire collection really propelled the company into a lead position in the American violin trade. As a commemoration of this one of the Cremonatone models, possibly the most heavily pushed was the "King Joseph Copy", but it wasn't antiqued, and looks rather like this. I've seen properly labelled examples, and this looks like one of them. But, they are not great copies of the original in the way that we think of them now. Think of this as a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy... The soundholes are quite 'soft' as del Gesu soundholes go, which is characteristic for this period. There is considerable variation, but this probably isn't the best post to go into it. Contrabasso, sorry I don't see Antoniazzi in it either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Thank you for the awesome clarification Ben Hebbert! I have noticed several notable differences myself. Still searching for something that is more consistent with this violin but at the moment it is looking a bit French to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 After a comprehensive comparison of Gesu models throughout Europe around the turn of the century, I have come to the conclusion that this violin has more in common with the English violins of John Frederick Lott. The variations on the Gesu are in alignment with his works and the c bouts appear more english in character. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Contrabasso Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Would this be considered a leduc copy? I'll have it back tomorrow at which point I will get some sound info Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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