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Pahdah's Roth


GoldenPlate
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Long ago I've personally owned 2 late '20s Roth "DG" violins. One of these had a Roth signature across the label. I've taken out on approval around 7 (all '20s) or so prior to purchasing the 2 that I owned, each for a period of at least two weeks. Every single one had an interior brand as described in Caspace's Tarisio link. Some serial numbers were prefixed with a letter, and some weren't.

The Tarisio example is probably a VI-R. So (presumably) were the ones without signatures that I had personally seen.

All had stylized f-holes in comparison to the one Pahdah is currently offering on Ebay. The curve opposite of the tip is (almost) suggestive of a V; similarly on the bottom. The one Pahdah is offering has a much "softer" feel, the curves don't have much of a hint of a V shape, that area almost resembles Stradivari style.

There are other details. Visually the Tarisio example just feels right; it's like seeing an old friend. The artistic sensibilities between the examples I had personal experience with and Pahdah's aren't even in the same ball park.

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I happened to find Tarisio's Nov. Auction of EH Roth, Reproduction of J. Guarnerius 1732

http://tarisio.com/p...cpid=2694594560

this tarisio violin appears to be the same 1732 Guarnerius label, with a 764 serial number, pahdahs violin is 4 years later and the serial number has gone backwards to 724, on top of that the tarisio violin has the proper Markneukirchen brand, so i hardly consider it a valid equivalent of the value of pahdahs violin, certainly if your willing to bid $7000 or more for a Roth, the tarisio auction seems to present a better option

serial numbers going backwards, if that doesnt at least establish reasonable doubt, i dont know what does!!

seems like the tarisio auction is probably a sure thing(with guaranteed authenticity, not just 14 day return), this pahdah auction is a "might" be 1929, might doesnt make right in my book, you guys can go crazy bidding up pahdahs auction all you want, even if it is real, pahdahs 1929 Roth its never going to have the resale value of that tarisio Roth with a proper Markneukirchen brand stamp, so the investment potential is not really comprable

anyway talking about bids and bidding on auctions 7 days before they end is just ridiculous, my guess is this violin will probably go for more than its worth, if it hasnt already

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this tarisio violin appears to be the same 1732 Guarnerius label, with a 764 serial number, pahdahs violin is 4 years later and the serial number has gone backwards to 724, on top of that the tarisio violin has the proper Markneukirchen brand, so i hardly consider it a valid equivalent of the value of pahdahs violin

serial numbers going backwards, if that doesnt at least establish reasonable doubt, i dont know what does!!

It absolutely does nothing but add credibility to the fact that the violin is an XIR..

Lyndon, for your information, which you can also glean from the Roth website, the first two numbers indicate the model and it has nothing to do with serial numbers going backwards. The "72" indicates the model XIR. Roth will confirm if they are still talking to you.

For example, serial number

50 is the 110 R - 2794 Euros

51 is the 120R -2904

52 is the IR - 2919

54 is the IVR - 2935

61 is the VIR - 3214

62 VIIR - 4231

63VIIIR - 4281

64 IXR - 4336

71XR - 5793

72XIR - 6477

and 81 is the highly prized and very rare XXR which currently lists for $14,991 Euros.

I appreciate the information you passed on in this thread regarding your conversation with Mr Roth. What he confirmed for you that the serial number in my violin is from the 1920s and the certificate is consistent with a cerrtificate written in the 1960s for a violin made in 1929. So, the certificate is ok per Mr. Roth and the brand is ok for a 1929 fiddle. All we are waiting for is two more confirmations: that the violin is a Roth and the label is authentic. Almost everyone except for you seem to agree on the former so there is only the case of the label's authenticity that is still in question. Looks like so far, my description has been proven accurate on three of the four issues in question.

In regard to whether or not a violin made in 1952 in East German could be exported into the US-heck, I don't know. I was under the belief that East German products were prohibited from importation into the US. Yet I do know of some that were smuggled in. I used to have a Practica camera, made in East Germany, on which the brand name had been scratched off. It had a Zeiss Tesser lens and was wonderful.

I am guessing that the violin will sell on ebay for about $7000. Somewhat less than a new XIR would cost from the Roth workshop. If it sells for $12,000, that would be very surprising to me.

In the meantime, I am buying a new Mercedes today, perhaps a few new Armani suits, some Turnbull and Asser shirts, and making plans for a ski vacation in Deer Valley. Oh, I might buy my wife a diamond or two. She has been putting up with my disagreeable mood for the past several days. :)

Tounge firmly in cheek.

Jesse

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Jimbow, it's $2916 now. Are you still the highest bidder :D

Nope. I was outbid late last night!

If it sounds as good as it looks the buyer should be very happy at any reasonable price.

"Reasonable" has different meaning to different folks, of course.

Good luck !

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Had the “original” certificate, signed with 1929 been in actual fact signed in Germany in the ‘60’s, the number “7” of “724” would neccesarily have had a horizontal dash across the stem. This one has an “anglo-saxon “7”. Altogether quite a lot of fairy tales. Sorry to display my ignorance again.

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Lyndon, for your information, which you can also glean from the Roth website, the first two numbers indicate the model and it has nothing to do with serial numbers going backwards. The "72" indicates the model XIR. Roth will confirm if they are still talking to you.

For example, serial number

50 is the 110 R - 2794 Euros

51 is the 120R -2904

52 is the IR - 2919

54 is the IVR - 2935

61 is the VIR - 3214

62 VIIR - 4231

63VIIIR - 4281

64 IXR - 4336

71XR - 5793

72XIR - 6477

and 81 is the highly prized and very rare XXR which currently lists for $14,991 Euros.

In the hopes of keeping this a factual E.H Roth thread and free of uninformed opinions, I don't believe this is accurate in any way. The instrument Lyndon referenced is serial number 76X and there is NO 76 Roth model...I also have a 1926 Strad model here with serial number A 80X, and of course 80 is NOT a Roth model. My Modern Roth's (made in the 2000's) are serial numbers G3 02XX and G3 05XX.

Do NOT try to determine anything from a Roth serial number and model comparison.

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pahdah, mr Roth did not say the serial number dated from 1929, i specifically asked him and he gave no reply, what he did seem to state is they have records for it presumably from the 50s or 60s, he also stated that the top would have had to be removed to add the brand, but the top has never been removed. he certainly didnt say the certificate was real, just that one written in the 50s or 60s would look like that(except for jacobs point about the 7 not being crossed) he definetly did not say the brand was correct for 1929, duh, but stated that would have to be added 30 years or more later

on top of that your serial number business is wonky, if that were the case the tarisio model would be model 76, whats that, how can they possible date serial numbers if they are actually model numbers, not sequential production numbers,

no ones even begun to consider the possibility that the serial number is forged, i think we need to wait on Mr Roth, and some real Roth experts, not ebay sales champions

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In the hopes of keeping this a factual E.H Roth thread and free of uninformed opinions, I don't believe this is accurate in any way.

Do NOT try to determine anything from a Roth serial number and model comparison.

Sound advice Gerald, though no-one is listening.

I think we should give up and retire to a virtual pub for a Glenfiddich along with Jimbow.

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Sound advice Gerald, though no-one is listening.

I think we should give up and retire to a virtual pub for a Glenfiddich along with Jimbow.

Well, I've tried. With the unfolding of the Machold case upon us, I'm hoping all us dealers, small or big, physical or virtual offerings, can do our best to keep honesty and integrity in our trade. I am not in the dealing game of big-name fiddles but I know I'll have someone walk into my shop and begin to say something about the Machold case. I hope the big dealers aren't affected too much by this sorry case.

When I can clear up some of the fogginess regarding the E.H Roth history with factual information directly from the Roth firm, I think a new thread should be in order. Hopefully it will help both dealers and potential clientele with the confident purchase and sale of early to modern E.H. Roth instruments.

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I don't have any comment on the present violin, but I do want to point out that in the 60s the Scherl & Roth, Cleveland, (that's the US company, run by a brother, I think? and not directly part of the German company, IF I understand correctly) catalogs were promoting several violins of the highest special models, made by the original Roth (they strongly implied the original Mr. Roth, himself, but that could easily be the original pre-war factory, and that's exactly what the pix looked like), preserved for decades in their collection, and for sale with prices only on serious inquiry. The several violins they illustrated did have this brand on the button.

I asked a friend who had worked there in the early 70s and he told me that the violins in question were examples of early ones of the best quality that they had kept and were on display, and that he didn't think they'd had any special inclination to sell them--that listing them in the catalog was probably more of an advertising boast about the glorious past.

However, had the price been right. . . .

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hes now steven maloney, the one that made the "violin tone and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee" quote

Actually, that is Michael Darnton's; I cannot claim credit.

The more I compare the violin being discussed with the one on Tarisio side by side, there really seems to be no comparison. The varnish, f-holes, the overall craftsmanship seem altogether very different, even to a non-expert.

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I don't have any comment on the present violin, but I do want to point out that in the 60s the Scherl & Roth, Cleveland, (that's the US company, run by a brother, I think? and not directly part of the German company, IF I understand correctly) catalogs were promoting several violins of the highest special models, made by the original Roth (they strongly implied the original Mr. Roth, himself, but that could easily be the original pre-war factory, and that's exactly what the pix looked like), preserved for decades in their collection, and for sale with prices only on serious inquiry. The several violins they illustrated did have this brand on the button.

I asked a friend who had worked there in the early 70s and he told me that the violins in question were examples of early ones of the best quality that they had kept and were on display, and that he didn't think they'd had any special inclination to sell them--that listing them in the catalog was probably more of an advertising boast about the glorious past.

However, had the price been right. . . .

I'll see if Wilhelm has anything to say about this. Michael, do you happen to recall if they were branded with the Bubenreuth internal brand as well as the neck heel brand? And would they have been labelled as "Roth" or "Scherl & Roth"? Did your friend work for Scherl & Roth, or E.H Roth?

One of the tricky things I see about this (because everything else has been so simple so far) is that Scherl & Roth was established before the war and these instruments could have been the examples brought by E.H Roth II, to the U.S. in 1921. I also suppose a number of instruments could have even been shipped out from the Markneukirchen shop to the U.S until it became prohibited. At some point, the brand could have been shipped as well...who knows..

Then there is the issue of the brand. These examples offered by Scherl & Roth (U.S) in the 60's, if they were manufactured in the 1920's/30's, would have had to have been shipped back to Germany (you mentioned your friend said they had been in the personal collection for decades) so they could get the heel brand as it was only first used in the 50's... :blink:

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The more I compare the violin being discussed with the one on Tarisio side by side, there really seems to be no comparison. The varnish, f-holes, the overall craftsmanship seem altogether very different, even to a non-expert.

To discuss this without hysteria and mud-flinging would seem fruitful, though I don't imagine that's a possibility.

I agree with you that there's little comparison - though varnish is particularly difficult without holding the thing in your hands. So what conclusions do you think it's safe to draw? As a starting point, is the Tarisio violin a good reference instrument?

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