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It would perhaps be a little fusy to point out that the village where Roth have been located since after WWII is spelt "Bubenreuth" and nicht "Bubenroth". Curious that the should have already had a Bubenreuth stamp made up in 1929, 15 or 16 years before they moved from Markneukirchen and long before anbody could have imagined that Markneukirchen would become part of the "Russian Zone", at a time when Bubenreuth consisted of two or three farm houses, long before the Geigenbauersiedlung was built there.

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pahdah has another fraud?? what gives, so obviously the violin dates from the 50s when roth moved to bubenreuth, the label is from another violin or fake?? and the violin is worth less than 1/2 of what pahdah would have us believe, obviously pahdah could have made an honest mistake, if hes running a legitimate business, hell update this listing before the end of the auction, in plain terms the label say markneukirchen 1929, which obviously is what the stamp should say but it doesnt, it has the bubenreuth stamp used on 50s and 60s roths

the cert is obviously fraudulent because it says bubenreuth in 1929 some 30 years before roth moved to bubenreuth.

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it appears to be a roth, but a 50s or 60s roth, not a 1929, representing it as a 1929 would be considered fraud by anyone in the violin business..... as the 1929 would be worth about three times as much.

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I talked to Ernst Heinrich Roth violins in Germany on the phone, and they said something is very obviously wrong, this label etc does not belong to this stamp, they requested a link to the auction which i have emailed them, and ill report on their reply

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Regarding this style of peg, do any of you have information on them? I had a violin from Hill that had those and have seen quite a few violins that passed through Hill that have similar pegs. I have wondered if they were initially designed by the Hills.

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"Infamy! Infamy! Those Romans have got it in for me ......!" (Frankie Howerd in 'Up Pompeii')

Jesse you have my sympathies, I think the division between fact and opinion in your listing is pretty clear. Hopefully EH Roth will be able to shed some interesting light on a genuine mystery, though in my experience they don't venture opinions unless one crosses their palm with silver.

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Well, Martin, here is an article from "Der Spiegel" from 1949, that reports that the Bavarian State Government had given the displaced Schönbach violin makers a piece of land to build "30 familly houses on" near Erlangen, which then became Bubenreuth:

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-44437259.html

Now tell us if E.H.Roth signing a certificate "Bubenreuth 1929" is, in your book, fact, opinion or a mystery

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The information below is directly from the listing. I think the comments were made before reading the description completely.

I believe that this violin was made in 1929 prior to World War II but most likely remained unsold until after the war. There are several factors that lead me to this conclusion. The Roth brand appearing on the button of the violin was not used until the firm relocated from Markneukirchen to Bubenroth/Ehrlangen after the war. Similarly, the internal brand also indicates Bubenroth Ehrlangen, which was the firm's location after the war. However, the paper label inside the violin is original, and there is no indication that it was replaced. Most importantly, the violin exhibits the rich oil varnish and exceptional attention to quality and detail (including the genuine grafted scroll) that characterizes the high-grade prewar instruments made by this firm. I have owned several post-war Roths (Bubenroth workshop) as well as pre-war Roths (Markneukirchen workshop) and the differences are clear and striking. Further, the authenticity as a pre-war Roth is guaranteed by the original Roth certificate which references the internal branded serial number found on this violin.

Jesse

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This is certainly a most interesting post. I have no answers but have owned serveral old Roths from the 20s and 30s and have also owned four from the 50s, including a very high grade Roth and have seen and played many more from the 50s. This violin does not look anything like the Roth violins I know of from the 50s, but does look like a Roth from the 20 or 30s. Will be following this post for the answer from the experts. OT

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When it comes to more affordable fiddles, and trade fiddles etc, I worry a lot less about the authenticity of a label, or any 'provenance' and the like than many people seem to. I'm much more concerned with the quality and condition of the fiddle, how well it's set up, and how well it works.

This fiddle seems to be in good order, clean, and well set up. If the neck is not original, then whoever did the work did it well. The line of the nut for example, shows a good knowlege of how things should be done, and an ability to do them.

I fail to see how a decently presented German violin like this should be less valued than a good modern trade violin from China for example, whether it's sixty or eighty years old. The latest bid stands at $288.

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I happen to have a similar model Roth dated 1962, photos are attached. It is easy to see differences including a spirit varnish instead of the oil varnish, different color, different wood, no grafted scroll, etc, etc.

I think it is rather obvious that the violin with the 1929 label is a far superior instrument, as would be expected.

Jesse

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post-4819-0-17325200-1352409942_thumb.jpg

post-4819-0-49934600-1352409909_thumb.jpg

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Further, the authenticity as a pre-war Roth is guaranteed by the original Roth certificate which references the internal branded serial number found on this violin.

Jesse

I have mentioned that it is "Bubenreuth" not "Bubenroth" allready. Since there wasn't a Bubenreuth or it's violin maker settlement until 1949, he cannot possibly have signed an "original certificate" with "Bubenreuth 1929" I'm afraid

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Pahdah, I think you should apply for a job at Christies. Clearly those people there responsible for the description of the Coleridge chain can't hold a candle to you.

Incidentally, I don't think anybody is arguing the relative quality of the fiddle, but a pre-dated "cert" and label.

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I have mentioned that it is "Bubenreuth" not "Bubenroth" allready. Since there wasn't a Bubenreuth or it's violin maker settlement until 1949, he cannot possibly have signed an "original certificate" with "Bubenreuth 1929" I'm afraid

The violin for sale on eBay was likely sold to its original purchaser after the war. The certificate was clearly written when the violin was sold to its original purchaser (as are all Roth certificates) after the war. That is why it is a Bubenreuth certificate. The description in the listing, and copied on this thread explains this rather clearly but it seems as if people prefer to comment negatively before arming themselves with the facts. Perhaps people prefer to make negative comments and ignore the details that don't fit their arguement. Things must be slow at the castle....

Jesse

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By the way, a new 2012 XIR with serial number beginning with 72 sells for 6477 Euros or about $8400 which is the manufacturer's suggested retail price. Contrary to Lyndon's assertion, "the violin is worth less than 1/2 of what pahdah would have us believe" I never suggested in my listing what the violin is worth.

Jesse

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The violin for sale on eBay was likely sold to its original purchaser after the war. The certificate was clearly written when the violin was sold to its original purchaser (as are all Roth certificates) after the war. That is why it is a Bubenreuth certificate. The description in the listing, and copied on this thread explains this rather clearly but it seems as if people prefer to comment negatively before arming themselves with the facts. Perhaps people prefer to make negative comments and ignore the details that don't fit their arguement. Things must be slow at the castle....

Jesse

I guess he stamped the Roth Bubenreuth brand in the centre of the back, on the pre-war, pre Bubenreuth violin, through the f hole. I wish I was that clever.

Castle fine thanks

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I guess he stamped the Roth Bubenreuth brand in the centre of the back, on the pre-war, pre Bubenreuth violin, through the f hole.

That would be the clincher for me regarding the instrument. It's either one of two ways to look at it:

1- The instrument has a false label (and accompioning certificate)

or

2- The instrument was built (perhaps not completely), forgotten for 20 or so years, completed, branded etc and labelled as an instrument built 20yrs prior to the present date and sold.

Logic would dictate that one of these is more likely than the other. I know which one I find more likely but perhaps the E.H. Roth folks can figure out what happened. As a dealer of modern E.H Roth instruments as well as having a few 20's Roths (a 50's and 70's as well) in shop I'm interested in what the Roth folks have to say about this one.

Nice looking instrument nonetheless :D

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Importation of goods made in East Germany into the United States was prohibited in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. If this violin had anything to indicate that it was made in East Germany during the war or after the war it would have been confiscated at the border. That is the reason behind the Bubenreuth brand inside the violin. I suspect that the top was removed for the violin to be branded because it is pretty hard to do so through the f hole as Jacob would prefer to.

This is not the only pre-war Roth violin that I have seen with a post war Roth brand. In fact, I believe there were several hundred finished violins that were brought to the Bubenreuth factory after the war by Albert Roth. I have been told the history on the Roth website bears this out.

The violin in question came in a vintage Jaegar case with a pre-war Roth bow. Both were in mint condition also and have been sold privately.

Jesse

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