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I think this was mentioned already, but prices are also fluid around certain people/professions. I know I got a pretty thorough, high labor repair done for super cheap, trading another violin for the repair, straight up. When it was a cheapish intermediate student violin in bad condition. From another shop, of a brand they didn't even carry.

I'm guessing that having ~150 students walking in with an equipment list from me probably helped. Especially since it was a new shop(2nd school year they were open). Along with the fact I hadn't haggled over a viola I had bought a few months before, maybe.

Granted, it wasn't a fast repair by any means, it took ~8 months. But I wasn't about to complain!

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Adding to my last post, it's also possible for an "artist" to establish an auction price history which reflects almost any amount they choose, so something sold at auction can also be overvalued, compared to the realistic retail market. Carla Shapreau goes into various tricks like that in her book,

"Violin Fraud: Deception, Forgery, Theft, and Lawsuits in England and America"

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Kind of object to your insinuation that online dealers "such as yourself" (#17) are cheaper than shops. This has no basis in fact.

drip, drip, drip

Sorry Jacob, I didn't mean to suggest that at all - it's quite obvious to me that some online dealers are absurdly over-priced! Some shops are very reasonable in their pricing. I'm trying to raise questions about specifics of over-pricing. And I'm only talking about what I have observed in the UK.

I made that comment in the context of Jeffrey's observation that a shop would go out of business if they didn't mark up student-level wholesaler-sourced items by around 100% (which is standard).

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A little tangential, but perhaps apropos...

Martin Swan commented, "This lack of clear pricing would in itself seem to me to be cause for concern, and I haven't seen parallels in any other trade."

The market for antique tribal/nomadic oriental rugs is a very interesting parallel. It is a very similar enterprise, since pricing can be all over the place. There are very upscale dealers, a similar presence to violins in fine auction houses, and a far more active (it seems to me) marketplace online. The money isn't quite at the level of the violin trade, but adding to the chaos is that so much less is known about the people who made these rugs and accurate dating for most types. On the other hand, if you have an informed eye, you can tell a lot about a piece from images (harder to do for violins, though I am impressed by how well you all do with that), and it has been amazing to see what sorts of fabulous antique pieces turn up on eBay, with sellers having no clue what they have. In that case, there are around 46K item in the antique rugs section of eBay today, and about 200 of those items are worth looking at; the volume and the misattributed items make it possible for a bottom-feeder like myself to find treasure there. In any case, the reputation of the oriental rug trade for weirdness and shady dealing surely equals the violin trade...

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Interesting thread indeed. Why this short circuit between the words fiddle and value? Can´t give well sorted arguments as Jeffrey and Jacob did, but would like to throw some thoughts in the boxing ring.

First,I think you can not define the value of an (old) violin by how expensive you could sell it to someone unsuspecting. Wouldn´t that be a justification for usurer?

When I throw away old cases on the local waste collection point, I will always be asked by the staff if anything is in it, and noted that I can´t throw fiddles away because they have a value. Politely I ask not if they ever had a violin in his hand, or have even visited once a classical concert. Why does everyone connect violin and value immediately?

A friend bought two weeks ago a new Volkswagen at a major retailer.

He inquired 20% discount for cash payment and got it! Was that good customer service? What is the value of his car? Were all clients ripped of who payed the full price a half year ago when the sale situation for the retailers were better?

I bought a porch to the house. Two guys were working for five hours, with material I had to pay more than 1000 bucks, a common price in my area. I'm satisfied. A violin maker who expects 150 hours and material would get at 15000, - the same. Is the value of his work and material less than that of the carpenters when a violin from him goes away at an auction for less?

Work by experienced and respected experts in any industry has more value and higher prices, whether medicans, lawyer, violin teacher.

I don´t know what´s in the U.S. but in Europe, when it comes to the valuation of a sale, the ignorance of sale taxes by many people is surprising. The dealer or maker here pays about 20% sales tax, not to talk of legal warranty obligations, trade in policies and overheads.

Who buys old violins as an investment and don´t know the markets listed by Jeffrey and Jacob, yet possesses enough knowledge of human nature to find a trusted dealer or adviser will end as the guys of the Austrian banks. What was the value their bank collateral violins?

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There is no such thing as "True Value"

And if you have large amounts of violins with fictitious names, how can one decide on any intrinsic value? I suppose you buy the best utility violin for the price.

The collector violins have precedence in the form of auction prices etc. Whatever you have, don't invest and expect to make money. To do this probably requires instruments over 100k. I don't know the sort of price this might be, but Jeffrey could comment.

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A little tangential, but perhaps apropos...

Martin Swan commented, "This lack of clear pricing would in itself seem to me to be cause for concern, and I haven't seen parallels in any other trade."

The market for antique tribal/nomadic oriental rugs is a very interesting parallel. It is a very similar enterprise, since pricing can be all over the place. There are very upscale dealers, a similar presence to violins in fine auction houses, and a far more active (it seems to me) marketplace online. The money isn't quite at the level of the violin trade, but adding to the chaos is that so much less is known about the people who made these rugs and accurate dating for most types. On the other hand, if you have an informed eye, you can tell a lot about a piece from images (harder to do for violins, though I am impressed by how well you all do with that), and it has been amazing to see what sorts of fabulous antique pieces turn up on eBay, with sellers having no clue what they have. In that case, there are around 46K item in the antique rugs section of eBay today, and about 200 of those items are worth looking at; the volume and the misattributed items make it possible for a bottom-feeder like myself to find treasure there. In any case, the reputation of the oriental rug trade for weirdness and shady dealing surely equals the violin trade...

I don`t find that tangential at all, the directive I gave for the various situations in which one is obliged to value old violins (often vastly) differently was originaly taken from a directive about orient carpets. Both are simultaneously antiques that are collected and admired, as well as things that one can use.

My turn to get tangential. Over the years, Many of my most valued customers have been members of old Vienese Family Dynasties, all members of which have played violin/cello for generations. Most of these have been buying “fine†instruments from good violin shops for up to a century or so, and have a familly batterie of wonderfull instruments, the odd one of which I would kill for. Even the dormant ones are really good and have the odd 1920’s Nürnberger or similar just mouldering away with it in the case. Other dynasties have always had more the “Schnapchenjägerâ€(bargin hunter) DNA, and bought “From Private†or from travelling dealers (online wasn’t invented yet, but fits in this category) and have no end of 3rd. choice dodgy stuff, which was often bought very expensively, none of which I would have any use for at all. I always think, when a solicitor rings, and asks me if I could write a probate appraisal for the estate of Herr X, "who left 50 violins", Oh God, not again, bite my tounge, then go and do it. I have had more than enough hairy situations, telling estates “That one isn’t a Rocca, It’s a Neuner & Hornsteiner†and the like, one after another. Over the years I have come more and more to the conclusion that it is hardly “shady dealing†that has caused this situation, but the buying families fear that the shop might be asking the full retail price, as well as the excitement of the chase to do “better†buying “privatelyâ€.

Re. “Lack of Clear Pricingâ€: There is absolutly nothing that has never been tried before and one can only recomend Martin buy himself, this christmas, the latest edition of the “Fuchs Taxeâ€

http://www.holfter.com/Shop/main_bigware_3.php?bigwareCsid=e6b8c2842365c3433bb328d6861ef040&search_in_description=1&keywords=Fuchs+Taxe&bigwareCsid=e6b8c2842365c3433bb328d6861ef040&x=17&y=13 which tells you (on the authority of experts who might have known better) exactly how much violins from all sorts of makers are “worthâ€. In daily practice though, this book tends to lead to ridiculous assumptions, mostly because nobody can be bothered to read the foreward.

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Adding to my last post, it's also possible for an "artist" to establish an auction price history which reflects almost any amount they choose, so something sold at auction can also be overvalued, compared to the realistic retail market. Carla Shapreau goes into various tricks like that in her book,

"Violin Fraud: Deception, Forgery, Theft, and Lawsuits in England and America"

Auctioning for violins will for sure be overvalued, and definitely won't be an accurate depiction of what the true cost of your violin is.

I have a friend who auctioned for a violin 10 years ago at an auction house. The price of the violin gradually went up to $8000, which my friend eventually made the last bid for and won the auction for the "$8000 violin". Keep in mind, prices for bids in auctions go up incrementally over each bidder... and so after an exchange of "x" number of bids, the "value" of the violin (the price at which bidders were willing to pay for the violin) went up to about $8000, and was sold.

So for the past 10 years, my friend has been telling everybody around him that he was playing with an $8000 violin (rightfully so, if he paid that much for it). Until couple months back, we went to get his violin appraised at 3 separate appraisal stores to hear that his violin is actually only worth $3000. He was shocked.

So if 3 different appraisal stores were able to identify the violin as a $2500 violin, that sort of tells me that there IS some sort of 'true value' to violins if 3 experts can agree on the same price.

How often do we customers pay for a violin, where the price of the instrument will be within a relevant range of what violin appraisers would say the violin is really worth?

I'm really loving the discussion though. I just find it funny how we often see people talk about how much their instrument is worth... yet I think to myself, is that really how much its worth? or is it simply just a matter of how nice your salesperson was feeling that day?

Thank you for bringing up this book ""Violin Fraud: Deception, Forgery, Theft, and Lawsuits in England and America".

I think I will give it a good read.

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i should point out when we talk about a standard 100% markup, that means the wholesale price is doubled or 100% above the wholesale price or what the dealer paid for it, this does not include new bridges, better strings and making the pegs work, that would be extra

in the industry this 100% markup is more kindly refered to as 50%, meaning 50% of the sale price is profit above cost, 40% usually means 40% of the sale price, not the violin is only marked up 40% above wholesale.

i cant speak specifically for the violin business, having never worked for a big shop, but in the guitar business, profit% of sale price is usually in the 40-60% range, the reason commisions are done at a lower 20-30% rate, is because the shop doesnt have to invest any money in buying the commision

in manufacturing terms, my experience is with guitars, wholesale price is supposed to be around 4 times materials and parts and i think labour, then roughly double that and you have suggested retail, obviously with commisions and perks, the instruments that make more for the dealer and salesman in profit, tend to get sold quicker!! so asking a dealer to take lower their cut on your product is not usually a good sales tactic, offering a higher percent to the dealer is a good option

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I'm fascinated by the directions that this post has spilled into, but in the spirit of mischief I'd like to go back to the original question I'd just like to ask the musician's out there - what are your skills worth? There must be a thousand threads out there on Maestronet and all over the internet expressing outrage about wedding planners who are unsympathetic to the amount of profit you expect to charge for ahem, er... turning up and playing some music, which is just what you like doing, right? Violin dealers have to pay for a roof over their head too. No more or less moral than expecting to be paid for making music... :huh:

A manufactured good produced in quantity is worth whatever the standard retail price is, and there are enough people selling them to understand what that price is. If you pay more (you can pay more) you've not got a good deal. But if you end up paying less - you got lucky for whatever reason. If your charge as a quartet is (for sake of argument) $1000 and that's the going rate that your competitors also charge, there might be a handful of reasons why you might only charge me $600, or even play at my wedding for free, but its still morally a $1000 product! If as the same quartet you figure that you are worth twice the price because you just won a competition, that's fair enough if the clients will go for it, but if you figure that your client is loaded and have "sucker" written on his forehead, maybe you might see what I'm prepared to pay - but upon your conscience be it. When the client brags that you're such a wonderful quartet and only cost $2,500 to someone who knows, see how word spreads...

And there is another mantra of marketing. Bad news spreads like wild-fire.

The finer points of "unique" antique violins are somewhat different. I'll keep my head down on that...

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Talking purely about "unique" violins, bows etc, it seems very difficult to establish a base unit from which further prices might be extrapolated. It would be nice to think that there was such a thing as a wholesale price for an old violin (or a "prestige" modern violin) but there isn't. Most UK dealers use the Red Book but there's a great deal of averaging has to go on, which of course can bring wildly different results depending on one's intention and disposition. The Fuchs-Taxe (or perhaps accidental or deliberate misunderstanding of it) seems to be one of the main inflationary forces in the trade.

Nowadays I favour Tarisio as a pricing guide. It's an internationally accessible database with a photo archive - the prices are set by a very broad mix of largely private buyers, also very international. If a sale price is within nodding distance of what something would cost to buy from Tarisio I wouldn't find it objectionable. Without prejudice :rolleyes:

The division between violin shops and online dealers is an artificial one. Many shops now out-source their repair and restoration work ... many online dealers have employees and overheads. A growing majority of people involved in selling violins are both dealing online and running a shop - take a look at everyone who's listed instruments on Amati.com. It's a brave new world ....

Bernie, I'm delighted that violin is still giving pleasure - to be fair, it was something of a one-off, and I've never heard of another violin by that maker (feel free to reveal the name, it's your call). It's a perfect example of how a violin with extraordinarily beautiful tone and response can be deemed almost valueless by the trade, and yet be worth everything to someone with a set of ears and few prejudices. If I find two or three like that in a year I feel pretty lucky.

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Nowadays I favour Tarisio as a pricing guide. It's an internationally accessible database with a photo archive - the prices are set by a very broad mix of largely private buyers, also very international. If a sale price is within nodding distance of what something would cost to buy from Tarisio I wouldn't find it objectionable. Without prejudice :rolleyes:

Yes, but the prices are still just auction prices, right? Are you using this a buying standard for yourself? Or the public at large?

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The finer points of "unique" antique violins are somewhat different. I'll keep my head down on that...

Smart fella'. :) I'm not quite as sharp as you today, so I'll poke my head out just a little.

Talking purely about "unique" violins, bows etc, it seems very difficult to establish a base unit from which further prices might be extrapolated.

I won't get into what dealers or shops do too deeply... that's too much of a snake pit for me this evening... but I will approach the value side of things from in terms of appraisal.

It all depends how "unique" we're talkin' here. Honestly, Martin, pricing and comparative pricing is much easier in small bites... and within ones own range of experience.

It's critical to my business, as an appraiser, to stay as current with sales trends for the category I most often appraise as I possibly can. I can pretty much rattle off reasonably tight price ranges for a good many "makes" of violins and bows if we're talking about very good to excellent examples in very good to excellent condition for a variety of markets (retail, etc.). Some are certainly easier than others... but I'm sure, with the experiences you've had, you can do the same for instruments you're familiar with. Compromised instruments (restored, etc.) might take some extra thought.

For example: Pretty much every decent appraiser and/or dealer of upper end fiddles knows what any specific Vuillaume is "worth" in their market any day of the week... and I find there is rarely significant disagreement. Same goes for a good middle period Sartory. For a more modest range, how 'bout pre 1890s Collin-Mezins, good '20s Roths (retail, wholesale, auction or other) or a Hill bow from the first half of of the 20th century?

Now, when it gets to something more rare, older and/or possibly more variable, like to a Giorgio Seraphin, or Peter of Mantua, a Grancino, a Nicola Bergonzi, a Vincenzo Rugeri, or a variety of other English, French, Dutch, German, and Austrian instruments one doesn't often see, things might get a bit more tricky... but how much more depends a bit on your exposure to these instruments and access to the sales of the same. If a person has seen 0-1 instruments by any given maker, how can they hope to get a decent grasp on how it compares to others by that maker in terms of quality? Going to the next level and verifying data without experience & exposure to aid in interpretation is an exercise in futility. One might be able to make an educated guess, but a guess would be all it really was.

There are many times, and the statement is appropriate... and not stating so is unethical (in my opinion)... that an appraiser should say "I'm not familiar enough with that maker/school of making/type of instrument to produce a reliable appraisal."

Advice for a buyer when dealing with old rare instruments: Ask the dealer how they arrived at the price (their methodology).

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ive seen an established dealer pull up auction prices to show a customer what his violin is "worth" then if he buys it, he sells it for twice that retail, auction prices are no more accurate gauge than checking google retail prices from shops, sometimes auctions sell a violin for full retail or more, sometimes they sell for below wholesale, an average auction prices approach wholesale, and on average retail asking prices approach retail, but there are exceptions to all of these rules, thats why its very important to work with a qualified experienced appraiser that understands all these ups and downs

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Auction prices as a whole are useless in this context for the reasons mentioned, but Tarisio is in a different category.

Tarisio prices are a good guide to what it might be fair for an "online dealer" to charge. Because of their client base, their guaranteed attributions and their international reach, they regularly achieve prices which I think of as "fair", even in a retail context, which has to include online dealers. "Doth he not also bleed?" cries the online retailer .....! (haven't got The Merchant of Venice to hand, forgive the mis-quote)

Shops are in many instances adding value and can justify higher prices, or at least that's the view I take.

I'd like to clarify that I'm not challenging the pricing policy of good violin shops, but there are a lot of rogues out there who "add value" simply by adding a large percentage to the price. If someone has the sense to challenge it, a large discount is immediately forthcoming. This observation was offered in response to the original post.

Nor do I mean any disrespect to the members here - if I had trouble determining the value of something I was selling, I would ask Jeffrey or Jacob or Peter Ratcliff, and I would accept without question their verdict on "true value".

The violin trade seems to be becoming more transparent with the massive proliferation of online auction records, sales archives, research papers etc. I get the feeling this is helping to turn over a few slimy stones.

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The violin trade seems to be becoming more transparent with the massive proliferation of online auction records, sales archives, research papers etc. I get the feeling this is helping to turn over a few slimy stones.

Maybe, but I wonder if this transparency is illusory.

To mention some interlinked factors, you can't see from the auction results what condition the instrument was in, or whether or not it's a good example, but this will have a big influence on the price a dealer would pay. As an example, what's the price differential between a "good" and a "bad" Strad?

The other issue is that players act as wild cards quite often, I think. Firstly comes the type of case described by Pho6, where a player has simply paid well over the odds. Secondly, most players can't tell if a violin needs a lot of work or not, unless it's really obvious, and will happily bid up an instrument way above what a dealer would pay.

I've sat next to a very well known dealer at an auction while he bid up a violin he didn't want himself with the comment "[the bidder] is a player, he shouldn't get it too cheaply", so that player ended up paying retail (about €35,000) on a violin he had no guarantee on and of unknown condition. It's worth noting that none of the other dealers present bid on this particular violin, suggesting to me there was something questionable, or at least less desirable, about it anyway, but that result is going to be noted in the red-book.

In the end isn't it only transparent if you were there, saw the instrument in question and have the competence to form an accurate opinion on its value?

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It would be nice to think that there was such a thing as a wholesale price for an old violin

The Fuchs-Taxe (or perhaps accidental or deliberate misunderstanding of it) seems to be one of the main inflationary forces in the trade.

Nowadays I favour Tarisio as a pricing guide.

The division between violin shops and online dealers is an artificial one. Many shops now out-source their repair and restoration work ... many online dealers have employees and overheads.

First you have “lower overheads†Martin, now you don´t. Perhaps you could make your mind up. Are you part of the violin trade, or are you one of an “occupy†mob?

Re: Etablishing a definitive “True value†(or futility of)

The Fuchs Taxe is a list of what a committee of experts (Messrs. Baumgartner, Grünke, Köstler, Stam, Ullern & Zunterer) would expect from a theoretical pristine example of a particular maker, where one can make (which is widely overlooked) the appropriate deductions, wheras “red Books†and Tarisio etc. are compilations of occasionally arbitary (since many amateurs get involved) auction results which can inflate one particular maker (as you recently noted with Lemböck) and don’t neccesarily imply immaculate condition, from which base one could calcuate the obligatary deductions. I am the last person to defend the Fuchs Taxe, which can be annoying, and with which I often disagree, but I do find it useful occasionally as a rough and ready 2nd. opinion, erratic auction results less so. Conclusion; there isn’t a plausible method to establish a definitive wholesale price, which is probably to be welcomed, unless one had a strange yearning for the ex DDR.

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Odd opening rally Jacob. I'm not sure what connection you are drawing between overheads and business ethics ...

I consider myself part of the violin trade (albeit a recent mutation that may or may not prove successful on an evolutionary timescale).

I probably have lower overheads than most violin shops - it stands to reason, since I don't provide a range of services, some of which are in themselves loss-making. But that's just me, other sellers without walk-in shops are different ... it doesn't mean I don't have overheads, and of course I have to make a profit to keep in business. Some people do up and sell violins for a hobby or a retirement project, but I do this for a living.

Some online sellers don't offer after-sales, equitable trade-ins, upgrades, maintenance, some do. Some don't offer the change to come and try instruments until your hands are dropping off, others do. Some seem to base their pricing on the Fuchs-Taxe, some don't.

I think it's futile to make arbitrary and generalized statements - we can only talk about specific people and their specific business model. All are different, and nowadays most people selling violins operate somewhere between "traditional violin shop" and "online only". If we start talking about specific examples that would be interesting and illuminating but we would quickly incur legal action ...

Ultimately it's down to customers to decide if I am part of the violin trade!

We are never going to be popular with someone who runs a shop. Either our prices are broadly equivalent, in which case we're seen as getting money for nothing, or our prices are lower, in which case we're seen as part of the "occupy mob" who can't possibly have ethics or anything worth selling!

While I think this is a great thing to discuss, it's maybe not what the thread was meant to be about. Sorry if I have diverted it - the question of overheads and online sellers/web sales came up very early in James' post, and I felt I could offer a perspective.

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Odd opening rally Jacob. I'm not sure what connection you are drawing between overheads and business ethics ...

I consider myself part of the violin trade (albeit a recent mutation that may or may not prove successful on an evolutionary timescale).

I probably have lower overheads than most violin shops - it stands to reason, since I don't provide a range of services, some of which are in themselves loss-making. But that's just me, other sellers without walk-in shops are different ... it doesn't mean I don't have overheads, and of course I have to make a profit to keep in business. Some people do up and sell violins for a hobby or a retirement project, but I do this for a living.

Some online sellers don't offer after-sales, equitable trade-ins, upgrades, maintenance, some do. Some don't offer the change to come and try instruments until your hands are dropping off, others do. Some seem to base their pricing on the Fuchs-Taxe, some don't.

I think it's futile to make arbitrary and generalized statements - we can only talk about specific people and their specific business model. All are different, and nowadays most people selling violins operate somewhere between "traditional violin shop" and "online only". If we start talking about specific examples that would be interesting and illuminating but we would quickly incur legal action ...

Ultimately it's down to customers to decide if I am part of the violin trade!

We are never going to be popular with someone who runs a shop. Either our prices are broadly equivalent, in which case we're seen as getting money for nothing, or our prices are lower, in which case we're seen as part of the "occupy mob" who can't possibly have ethics or anything worth selling!

While I think this is a great thing to discuss, it's maybe not what the thread was meant to be about. Sorry if I have diverted it - the question of overheads and online sellers/web sales came up very early in James' post, and I felt I could offer a perspective.

My reference to “occupy mob†certainly wasn’t because your “prices were lower†(in your imagination), but was a reference to your post #17, where you assert that uk shops offer “Patently absurd†prices, without giving any concrete details that would allow anybody else to check the truthfullness of your claim. The implied subtext is of course, that people would be crazy to buy in a brick & mortar shop, therefore rather.... . This is precicely the sort of thing that gives less knowlegable people the incentive, for instance, to buy canine Tirolean violins on one of the bays, having had there confidence in the retail trade unfairly rubbished.

Perhaps we could agree that a sensible threshold for what is “trade†and what isn’t might be weather one is registered for VAT or not, and not if one is on or off line. Certainly not something for the public to decide. Nobody equated overheads/business ethics

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Ok, well it's an odd criterion, but since I'm VAT registered I am clearly "trade".

I think you're hearing an implied subtext where there is none. I'm not making any generalizations about the difference between one kind of seller and another, I'm just questioning the way items are priced and trying with difficulty to find my way around.

Do you feel that £30,000 is a fair price for a Johann Georg Thir in good condition? I don't think it was ever owned by Ruggiero Ricci ....

Do you feel that D. Soriot and similar better Laberte models are worth £5000?

Personally I don't think any amount of back-up or customer care justifies such prices, but maybe I'm behind the times on both. What does the Fuchs-Taxe say!

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