two labeled violins and bows to evaluate. What do you make of them?

[geomaes]

Anyone care to venture opinions?

two violins and two bows

labels straduarius

and

josephguarnerius

What do you make of them?

all opinions as to origin are welcome

photos here

http://www.georgefitchwatson.com/inst/galleryindex.php

notice especially the mark

JHrZ

in http://www.georgefitchwatson.com/inst/galleryindex.php?cmd=image&sfpg=am9zZXBoZ3Vhcm5lcml1cy8qd2ViRFNDRjM3MjEwMDA0Ni5qcGcqOTRhODNlNWRjMWY5MTgzMmFkODRmOGMwZjVmY2RkNjU

what to make of it?

[Jeff White]

Both Violins look to be Markneukirchen/Shonbach turn of the century cottage industry instruments, mass produced. The bows are nothing of consequence. Your poor strad copy is pretty much toast. The G. violin could come together, looks like. jeff

[jacobsaunders]

JHrZ will mean "Julius Heinrich Zimmermann", a Markneukirchen dealer with branches in St. Petersburg, Moscow, Leipzig, Berlin, Riga and London pre-WWI, otherwise, see Jeff

[fiddlecollector]

advert 1898

[geomaes]

Both Violins look to be Markneukirchen/Shonbach turn of the century

assuming you mean late 1800's early 1900's?

[geomaes]

JHrZ will mean "Julius Heinrich Zimmermann", a Markneukirchen dealer with branches in St. Petersburg, Moscow, Leipzig, Berlin, Riga and London pre-WWI, otherwise, see Jeff

ta

hansk fior that.

It had me curious!

[geomaes]

JHrZ will mean "Julius Heinrich Zimmermann", a Markneukirchen dealer with branches in St. Petersburg, Moscow, Leipzig, Berlin, Riga and London pre-WWI, otherwise, see Jeff

so found this video of a J H Z strad being played

and a J H Z bow taht went for $2000 + at chreistie1

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/musical-instruments/workshop-of-julius-heinrich-zimmermann-a-silver-mounted-5304956-details.aspx

and this

"

Founded 1876 in St. Petersburg, Russia by a German, Julius Heinrich Zimmermann (1851-1923). The principal place of business was moved to Leipzig before 1890 though branch offices were retained in St. Petersburg and Moscow which were confiscated by the Soviet regime in 1918. The company management was taken over by his son Wilhelm after Julius Heinrich's death in 1923, under whose name the imprint continued operations in Leipzig.

"

and this

"

I have a violin made by J. H. Zimmermann in Leipzig. I tried to get some information from Zimmermann-Verlag in Frankfurt about the violinmaker who worked for Zimmermann. They sent me following answer:

there were violin made with a No. from 4000 to 4065 - Village-violin (from 5,--M), Beginner's violin (from 7,--M), Schoolviolin (from 8,-- M.), Orchestra Violin (from 15,-- M.), Copies after italien. Master Amati/Guarnerius/Stradivarius/Maggini (from 25,-- M.), Solo-Instruments

(from 60,-- M.), violin with whole back side and carvered Snake (from 75,-- M.), Concertviolin (from 100,-- M.) und Masterviolin (from 150,-- M.).

Information by a violinmaker in Lübeck:

List of violinmaker, who worked for Zimmermann: Robert Hammig, Reichel, Roth, Bohlig und Paulowitsch

"

very interesting!

Also my instruments do not have a serial number which makes me think they could be an instrument he dealt or reconditioned rather than made.

[geomaes]

mine doesnt have country of origin or made in label so I guess mid 1800's?

according to this:

"

Yup. If I have my dates right, all goods imported into the US had to have the country of origin listed somewhere on the good after the year 1891. In 1914, a further requirement was that the originated county's name had to be in English, and the words "Made in" also on the good. So you can tell the date of a trade fiddle 3 ways:

If it doesn't say "Made In," you would know it's a pre-1914.

If it has just the name of the originating country, then it's post 1891, and pre-1914.

No listing at all means it's older than that.

Now, bear in mind the label with all the info on it might have fallen off, so that there's no clue to its origin, but these guidelines help."

[geomaes]

JHrZ will mean "Julius Heinrich Zimmermann", a Markneukirchen dealer with branches in St. Petersburg, Moscow, Leipzig, Berlin, Riga and London pre-WWI, otherwise, see Jeff

so heres one for sale

http://www.amati.com/violin/violin-instrument/a-german-violin-by-julius-heinrich-zimmermann-circa-1900.html

and here's a photo of zimmerman with some others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Lyapunov

very cool!

thank you for this information becuase it has really allowed me to get some sense of the history of this instrument!

[geomaes]

Both Violins look to be Markneukirchen/Shonbach turn of the century cottage industry instruments, mass produced. The bows are nothing of consequence. Your poor strad copy is pretty much toast. The G. violin could come together, looks like. jeff

thanks.

I read your "poor strad copy " to mean it was a bad copy but perhaps you meant "poor " as in beaten up badly ?

[geomaes]

more interesting stuff about zimmerman from a whistle museum!

"

In 1901, Zimmermann was bestowed with the Order of Saint Stanislaus by tsar Nicholas II of Russia, beginning an association with the Russian tsar, as well as becoming exclusive purveyor of brass instruments to the Russian army.

At that time he signed on Riccardo Drigo and published his most famous ballets.

By 1904, Zimmermann acquired the piano factory of Gustav Fiedler in Leipzig.

It produced then Jul. Heinr. Zimmermann pianos, harmoniums and mechanical musical instruments as well as musical boxes and speaking machines.

From 1905 until 1919, Julius Heinrich Zimmermann was deputy of the German Reichstag and opened a distribution of his company in Berlin. The Russian branches of Zimmermann were nationalised by the Bolsheviks in 1918."

[geomaes]

found this photo of j h zimmerman in his shop with violins under construction.

can anyone identify the two hand wheeled machine tool on the left of the photo?

http://images.quickblogcast.com/115671-107959/CatalogJuliusHeinrichZimmermann1899Pg2_whistlemuseum600.jpg?a=63

[lyndon]

if a 1920 instrument was not intended for export to the USA, it most likely wouldnt have the made in germany stamp, you cant say for sure about these things, as not all german violins were exported to america, your violin could have been imported to america, if thats where you are, only quite recently, happens all the time

[Jeff White]

thanks.

I read your "poor strad copy " to mean it was a bad copy but perhaps you meant "poor " as in beaten up badly ?

The latter, I meant it in a sympathetic way. jeff

[Conor Russell]

found this photo of j h zimmerman in his shop with violins under construction.

can anyone identify the two hand wheeled machine tool on the left of the photo?

http://images.quickb...eum600.jpg?a=63

i think it may be a string winding machine.

[vathek]

I'm sure many German immigrants brought their instruments with them when they came over which were not made for export.

[James M. Jones]

i think it may be a string winding machine.

My thought as well.