Genuine old 18th c Italian violin

[GoldenPlate]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-old-18th-c-Italian-violin-cello-Italien-Italy-Geige-c1760-NR-/280986933765?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416c205a05

This seller bought this violin from Pahdah, and now reselling it on ebay!

[Flyboy]

Looks like Dr. V may have wised up. Also a nice way for the seller to get a free appraisal. Just when we thought we've seen it all it gets worse...

[jacobsaunders]

If i am not seeing things, it has had the f holes pretty much filled out and compleatly recut, which will render recognising it practically impossible . If you look at the corners, I have the impression that (does anyone else?) the ribs are let into the back, which could narrow things down a bit.

[vathek]

The bee stings look like the purfling is just butted up rather than cut at the correct angles. Does that signify anything?

[stephen maloney]

"She loves lions so now she has decided to play a Austrian lion`s head violin from 1720..."

I love horse pucky like this; reminds me of certain other used car salesman style verbiage I have seen

on certain auction websites.

[Addie]

But this violin looks like a real dog.

A dog that’s been through the wringer a few times.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I love bullsh** like this; reminds me of Hound's used car salesman style verbiage.

OK. Look. I'm not trying to pick on Stephen, but he provided the example... all involved really need to consider this.

This kind of comment is uncalled for. Discussing the violin, discussing the listings or sales methods, expressing dislike for an approach or other critiques (within reason) are acceptable.

Stalking a seller is unacceptable. Verbal insult or assault when expressing concepts, personal attacks, name-calling and other nonsense (including some of the language of late) needs to end for this auction section of the board to continue unaltered.

I do not expect that there will be no conflict, but I do expect conflict to remain civil.

The rules for this section of the forum are clear. I suggest self restraint. I have no desire to act as a forum "policeman". Forcing me into that role will make (and is making) me very grouchy.

[jacobsaunders]

The bee stings look like the purfling is just butted up rather than cut at the correct angles. Does that signify anything?

If you are refering to the belly corners, I think that that probably has more to do with clumsy fitting of replacement edgework

[Flyboy]

If i am not seeing things, it has had the f holes pretty much filled out and compleatly recut, which will render recognising it practically impossible . If you look at the corners, I have the impression that (does anyone else?) the ribs are let into the back, which could narrow things down a bit.

I'm curious how you can discern the ribs are set in channels in the back from those photos.

Now maybe I'm just cynical, but I'd like to see a written Köstler appraisal for that fiddle. Be interesting to see how he figured the belly was from Milan.

[jacobsaunders]

I'm curious how you can can discern the ribs are set in channels in the back from those photos.

Now maybe I'm just cynical, but I'd like to see a written Köstler appraisal for that fiddle. Be interesting to see how he figured the belly was from Milan.

When one is asked what this or that violin could be, sometimes one knows straight away without even having to think. Normaly one doesn’t though, and is left doing a “process of elimination†to narrow things down. I generally divide violins into two main breeds, the form/neck & nail one, and the built free on the back one (not always including a through neck). If you look at the third picture of the inside of the bottom back corner, one could (I hope I’m not mistaken) imagine that the ribs have been built free on the back, and let into a narrow channel in the back (which often shows in daylight at the corner), this is a sub-group of the 2nd. “breed†of violin (see above). Should I be right, I only know this method from old (and rarely newer), Mirecourt (Paris being a suburb of Mirecourt in this view of the world), old Flemish, very old Füssen and sometimes Salzkammergut makers, although there are probably other schools that I haven’t noticed yet. Other things, like the snub-nosed purfelling corners noted by Vathek, which I can’t quite make out from the photos myself, but also how the peg-box champfer gets wider where it joins the volute of the scroll, allong with several other features, remind me of a violin I am working on at the moment, which I call “old French†allthough, ironically, it bore a fake “Jais Bozen†label when I got it.

Re Köstler: About 20 years ago, Charles Beare told me personaly “There is no such thing as Charles Beare said, there is Charles Beare wrote, and Charles Beare didn’t writeâ€. I realise that this anecdote is a clasical oxymoron, but he did say it! It won’t be much different with Hironymous, so I would ignore 3rd parties reporting suposed verbal appraisals entirely. I sometimes hear what someone told someone else, that I said about a particular instrument, and allways think to myself that that Saunders bloke must be a right nutcase.

[lyndon]

theres something very suspicious about the label, indicating it may be quite new, notice the white spots which is where the surface "patina" is worn through, the paper is lily white underneath, very unlikely for an original label, where the label would be brown, through and through

also the purfling would be unusual for italian, which is usually wider white, narrower black, here just the opposite

[Jeffrey Holmes]

The bee stings look like the purfling is just butted up rather than cut at the correct angles. Does that signify anything?

Like Jacob, I'm having difficulty sorting out exactly what I'm seeing in the listing photos. I also "think" I see evidence at the corners of the trench for the ribs in the back Jacob mentioned. Both these features certainly would "mean something". They are important details, but are unfortunately not exclusive to just one set of makers or one school. Reliable identification by elimination is cumulative (corners, construction, style, etc.), as nicely described by Jacob.

Here's a couple photos illustrating butt jointed purfling corners:

[bean_fidhleir]

theres something very suspicious about the label, indicating it may be quite new, notice the white spots which is where the surface "patina" is worn through, the paper is lily white underneath, very unlikely for an original label, where the label would be brown, through and through

I agree that the label looks hokey, but for a different reason. Real paper from that time was made of rags, and doesn't go brown. You can look at printed material from the 18th c. (or even the 16th) and it might show many signs of age and ill-treatment including discolored places, but having gone brown won't be one of them. It's wood-pulp paper that goes brown (and brittle).

[lyndon]

ive yet to see a 1700s label that hasnt turned brown......maybe we have different definitions of brown, but white isnt one of them in my book

[jacobsaunders]

ive yet to see a 1700s label that hasnt turned brown......maybe we have different definitions of brown, but white isnt one of them in my book

My definition would be more sligtly greyish. Beware of brown labels I would say (nut stain, coffee etc.)

[bean_fidhleir]

ive yet to see a 1700s label that hasnt turned brown......maybe we have different definitions of brown, but white isnt one of them in my book

To me, my Stainer lionhead av is "brown". Old rag paper in its natural state is off-white, technically about 5% warm grey, neither bright white (they didn't bleach it) nor "brown" (they didn't stain it either). It can go medium-grey if filthy, or become "brown" through being stained, e.g., by rust, but mere age will leave it substantially unchanged.

You can verify this in most large libraries: ask to see their pre-1800 printed material. Even the least-important books and posters from the 18th c. will still be that warm, unbleached optical white. They just don't react to the atmosphere the way modern wood-pulp paper does. Incunabula (15th-c. printed material) is really instructive: works by Johannes Gutenberg, Will Caxton, and Jan van Wynkyn (Wynkyn de Wo(o)rde) are as pristine today as they were the day they left the press ca. 500 years ago.

So if you're seeing brown-from-age labels, they're definitely no older than the late 19th c.

[Conor Russell]

While we're on the subject of label paper;

My brother is a print maker, and is always very careful to use acid free paper. I have seen incredibly clean Amati labels, for example, and wondered were they printed on similar stuff.

Would you recomend a paper type for labels, so that they may grow old gracefully

Many thanks,

Conor

[fiddlecollector]

Paper will yellow ,even old rag paper though not as badly as later mass produce stuff.. Also a violin label is in constant contact with the atmosphere containing all manner of nasties.Unlike a Medieval Manuscript which is usually in a closed book.

Paper making in Italy started declining in the early 18th century.

Commenting on the type of paper used on poor quality digital photos images on a computer is not an easy or sure way to determine the paper used, too much speckle /noise etc... on the average digital image.

[lyndon]

correction i guess what i was meaning by brown, is tan or beige or greyish tan, but even were its freshly torn or worn i dont see bright white

[rudall]

Paper will yellow ,even old rag paper though not as badly as later mass produce stuff.. Also a violin label is in constant contact with the atmosphere containing all manner of nasties.Unlike a Medieval Manuscript which is usually in a closed book.

And neither is it stuck onto wood.

Andrew

[dand]

ouch.....I just bit my tongue!

[bean_fidhleir]

Paper will yellow ,even old rag paper though not as badly as later mass produce stuff.. Also a violin label is in constant contact with the atmosphere containing all manner of nasties.Unlike a Medieval Manuscript which is usually in a closed book.

Paper making in Italy started declining in the early 18th century.

Commenting on the type of paper used on poor quality digital photos images on a computer is not an easy or sure way to determine the paper used, too much speckle /noise etc... on the average digital image.

Well, if you actually mean mediaeval (handmade books), very very few were produced on anything but skin, which of course looks very different to paper. The Chinese made rag paper ages before the Euros did, and the Egyptians and to some extent other Med. peoples made a sort of paper from papyrus, and I think I remember reading that the Aztecs had experimented, but even Gutenberg printed his first stuff on skin (of course it was cos he was trying to trick people into thinking it was all handwork).

Honestly, I'd have to be shown a certified-no-kidding-old fiddle label that had gone grotty from the atmosphere alone before I'd believe it. Dirty from dust, yes. Stained from spills, yes. Mildew, yes. Insect leavings, yes. But from normal domestic atmosphere? I can't think of any process that would produce discoloration. I even did a quick google to check whether there was something I'd missed out all these years apropos old paper going yellow. No mention. But if you have some cites I'd be very eager to read them.

[bean_fidhleir]

While we're on the subject of label paper;

My brother is a print maker, and is always very careful to use acid free paper. I have seen incredibly clean Amati labels, for example, and wondered were they printed on similar stuff.

Would you recomend a paper type for labels, so that they may grow old gracefully

Many thanks,

Conor

Any 100% unbleached rag paper should do the job. The paper your brother uses is probably bleached and possibly clay-coated, but if you don't mind the brightness, it'll do what you want.

In the 16th thru early-19th centuries paper was made by hand a sheet at a time on wire screens, drained and dried naturally. It tended to be somewhat soft and thick compared to modern papers that are dried by squeezing between giant roller drums, often chromed, heated by gas fires. You could even replicate the handwork process yourself if you want to have complete control, it's not high-tech.

Here http://raytomasso.co...udio_paper.html is a guy who looks like he could do it all for you. Not only does he make handmade rag paper, he even (Addie will be as enchanted as I) runs an old treadle clamshell! Kshooga kshooga kshooga kshooga

[Addie]

Love those old presses...

anyhow, books vs labels, most books aren’t allowed to collect the kind of dirt that violins seem to collect.

100% linen paper, 200 years old, vs. 100% linen, 200 years old. You’ll find lots of old samplers that have yellowed, grayed, browned, etc. Simply a matter of the environment. One common culprit is a wood-pulp cardboard backing in the frame. Not unlike rag paper in contact with wood for 200 years.

[fiddlecollector]

Well, if you actually mean mediaeval (handmade books), very very few were produced on anything but skin, which of course looks very different to paper. The Chinese made rag paper ages before the Euros did, and the Egyptians and to some extent other Med. peoples made a sort of paper from papyrus, and I think I remember reading that the Aztecs had experimented, but even Gutenberg printed his first stuff on skin (of course it was cos he was trying to trick people into thinking it was all handwork).

Honestly, I'd have to be shown a certified-no-kidding-old fiddle label that had gone grotty from the atmosphere alone before I'd believe it. Dirty from dust, yes. Stained from spills, yes. Mildew, yes. Insect leavings, yes. But from normal domestic atmosphere? I can't think of any process that would produce discoloration. I even did a quick google to check whether there was something I'd missed out all these years apropos old paper going yellow. No mention. But if you have some cites I'd be very eager to read them.

I`ll agree to disagree, i did work in a museum conservation department lab for 2 -3 years and ive seen it first hand. Acid in the atmosphere will yellow( note i say yellow not dark brown )

Paper is basically cellulose and acid not matter where or how it gets onto paper will cause yellowing ..

Light will induce yellowing also, just normal day light no need for UV.

Have you never looked at old watercolours painted on high quality rag paper?? Round the borders of the painting?

You may live in a cleaner environment than i do in England ,where we`ve had heavy industry and coal burning for 2 centuries.

Mildew , dust etc... are a product of the atmosphere at least where i come from.