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Roger Hargrave

A question from Roger Hargrave

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As many of you will know some years ago I wrote about Joseph Guarneri's method of construction. To cut a long story short, his method is basically the Amati method done badly. In fact the quality, or better said, the lack of quality in his work, has provide some of the best clues about the Amati/Cremonese method. However, over the years I have heard several doubts about my interpretations, especially about how the Cremonese finished their edge-work. Now I know that these doubter have not really tried my methods, but I am a very forgiving man and do not blame them for being armchair theorists. And anyway unless you are making a baroque violin there is no reason to follow the Amati baroque method to the letter. But I digress!

I can in fact prove that my method is correct, but I need to enlist the help of Maestronet fans. Does anyone have pictures of Amati or Stradivari violins with scribe lines on the high spot of the edges? If so can you please post them here. I am holding my breath until they arrive. Thanks.

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Roger,

Far be it from me to question you. You've forgot more than I'll ever know, but I believe I saw a photo here on MN of a Audrea Guarneri viola with scribe marks clearly in the corners. He would have used the Amati method surely, or maybe I'm mistaken. Anyway it's fun to try to figure this stuff out. Kind of like the f hole thread recently. Fun stuff.

Edit: Photo added. I believe this is the viola at the Music Museum in South Dakota.

post-6653-0-97375300-1344627616_thumb.jpg

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Forgive me for citing the original photographer. I'm on the shop computer without my notes with original sources and documentation and will give credit. This is the messiah closeup shots of the corners. If I'm violating copyright I'll delete asap.

post-28844-0-01641600-1344627145_thumb.jpg

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post-28844-0-27904900-1344627269_thumb.jpg

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---

Edit Source is Peter Ratcliff

This is the full photo album

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc92/PeterRatcliff/Strad/?albumview=slideshow

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Harrison Strad lower left corner of the back plate you can see part of the scribe line still left more in the c bout area

post-28844-0-01073800-1344627775_thumb.jpg

It's very difficult to see that, it could be scraper markings.

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As many of you will know some years ago I wrote about Joseph Guarneri's method of construction. To cut a long story short, his method is basically the Amati method done badly. In fact the quality, or better said, the lack of quality in his work, has provide some of the best clues about the Amati/Cremonese method. However, over the years I have heard several doubts about my interpretations, especially about how the Cremonese finished their edge-work. Now I know that these doubter have not really tried my methods, but I am a very forgiving man and do not blame them for being armchair theorists. And anyway unless you are making a baroque violin there is no reason to follow the Amati baroque method to the letter. But I digress!

I can in fact prove that my method is correct, but I need to enlist the help of Maestronet fans. Does anyone have pictures of Amati or Stradivari violins with scribe lines on the high spot of the edges? If so can you please post them here. I am holding my breath until they arrive. Thanks.

Hi Roger,

Here are three shots of the Carlo Bergonzi violin - Cramer-Heath. Hard to find unworn instruments but I might be able to rustle up some more.

There are traces up near the upper treble corner of the back and further down the c-bout but further away from the corner. Sorry about the quality of the photographs.

Bruce

post-29446-0-53163600-1344628184_thumb.jpg post-29446-0-91497500-1344628207_thumb.jpg post-29446-0-20711200-1344628236_thumb.jpg

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I want to say someone had mentioned scribe lines on the lady blunt when they saw it in person but I just looked through the photos I had and some that were posted on Maestronet and couldn't see them. Possibly someone could graciously ask Ethan over at Tarisio if there were any photos available of the Lady Blunt showing scribe lines at oblique angles.

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How odd...I thought this was a done deal. I had no clue some felt that this wasn't the correct method. I also remember seeing many scribe lines through the years on Maestronet. I just don't have any copies I can find.

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Late Stradivari c.1732. The Oppio maple seems to hold the depression made by the scribe easier than the spruce or normal mountain maple like the rib height scribe line on the 'Reynier' Stradivari of 1727.

post-29446-0-87777400-1344629886_thumb.jpg

The second is Hieronymus II Amati 1683 in the back bass c-bout near lower corner.

post-29446-0-56364800-1344630004_thumb.jpg

Bruce

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Harrison Strad lower left corner of the back plate you can see part of the scribe line still left more in the c bout area

post-28844-0-01073800-1344627775_thumb.jpg

Way too worn to see anything Andrew, I don't see a scribe line. Stradivari, I believe, was very light fingered with his scribe marks and he may have intentionally obliterated them from the completed instrument before varnishing. Something as simple as lightly wetting the edges or the outside work with a damp cloth would eliminate many of these marks.

Bruce

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Agreed - I think more scraper marks there from the inside. I'll look more around this weekend. Its simply hard finding instruments in a state of preservation good enough to see details like this. Ive personally never seen any strads or del gesus in my hands with these details and only in photos.

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2010 Bergonzi Catalog, p. 64 (Becker article) has an image of a 1722 Strad showing what appears to be a faint scribe line on the under edge. Becker notes a scribe line in the text but what I see is a line that delineates where the varnish has worn off.

Chris

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As many of you will know some years ago I wrote about Joseph Guarneri's method of construction. To cut a long story short, his method is basically the Amati method done badly. In fact the quality, or better said, the lack of quality in his work, has provide some of the best clues about the Amati/Cremonese method. However, over the years I have heard several doubts about my interpretations, especially about how the Cremonese finished their edge-work. Now I know that these doubter have not really tried my methods, but I am a very forgiving man and do not blame them for being armchair theorists. And anyway unless you are making a baroque violin there is no reason to follow the Amati baroque method to the letter. But I digress!

I can in fact prove that my method is correct, but I need to enlist the help of Maestronet fans. Does anyone have pictures of Amati or Stradivari violins with scribe lines on the high spot of the edges? If so can you please post them here. I am holding my breath until they arrive. Thanks.

/quote]

Hi Roger...is there any particular reason that you have for asking re Stradivari or Amati.....Does this mean you feel that they are directly connected or that Strad is more relevent than other artizans who were known to work for the Amati Family?

I don't think a master craftsman needs a scribed line to run a gouge or a knife to a distance from an edge which for a normal draughstman is a guide enough in itself.....I don't use it in my own work any more but it could be a good guide for an apprentice.

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last year there was a similar thread. Philip Ihle posted a picture of an N. Amati edge work with a convincing scribe line along the C bout. Manfio also posted a very clear picture of scribe lines on the same thread, but it was from a GdG violin.

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last year there was a similar thread. Philip Ihle posted a picture of an N. Amati edge work with a convincing scribe line along the C bout. Manfio also posted a very clear picture of scribe lines on the same thread, but it was from a GdG violin.

Well remembered!

. It was the back of the Alard Amati & Philip never misses anything!

But what does a scribe line signify...? Roger?

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I don't think a master craftsman needs a scribed line to run a gouge or a knife to a distance from an edge which for a normal draughstman is a guide enough in itself.....I don't use it in my own work any more but it could be a good guide for an apprentice.

I don't normally use them, or think they're necessary either, but the couple of times when I tried it recently, the the lines were kind of handy, and maybe saved a little time.

Trying it again was based on a tip from John Becker, and his observations of Cremonese instruments.

I didn't quiz him about details, but got the impression that he thought it was part of the method.

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I think Roger isnt expecting to find any!

Pic here no sign of scribe lines.

Nice picture and thanks, but I am actually looking for scribe lines which a rare few (mainly) Amati violins seem to have.

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