skiingfiddler Posted July 31, 2012 Report Posted July 31, 2012 To keep from hijacking Zefir's thread any further, this thread is a continuation of the topic of having classes and maybe full fledged university programs for training in violin connoisseurship. Maybe that topic has run its course and we're done, but at least Zefir will get his thread back. Here's the link to the old thread. For the sake of continuity, here's Bruce Carlson's post: Begin Bruce's post Personally I like books and photographs but they are for me a reminder aid of what I have already seen and examined first hand. Unfortunately, the greatest number of Stradivaris that I have ever examined together at one time is 44, for about a month and a half, back in 1987. Even today I still think I have a lot to learn about Stradivari. I am not trying to brag or be facetious but I don't think you have an idea as to how much time and effort must be put into this work even to get off to a slow start. The learning never stops.... How will the University select the course instructor? What criteria? They may have no academic credentials recognised by the University. Surely not FAME as a dealer? Naturally not because he has become wealthy in his trade? I honestly don't think it is something that you can control. To become a recognised expert, even of a certain maker or school, is necessarily out of your control. Being born to a long standing family of violinmakers and dealers can be an advantage but this too is no guarantee. Talent is not hereditary nor teachable. I think that goes for great musicians as well; or any other field for that matter. Bruce "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." attributed to Abraham Lincoln. End Bruce's post. Here's my reply: Personally I like books and photographs but they are for me a reminder aid of what I have already seen and examined first hand. Unfortunately, the greatest number of Stradivaris that I have ever examined together at one time is 44, for about a month and a half, back in 1987. Even today I still think I have a lot to learn about Stradivari. I am not trying to brag or be facetious but I don't think you have an idea as to how much time and effort must be put into this work even to get off to a slow start. The learning never stops.... I agree completely, for what my opinion is worth. How will the University select the course instructor? What criteria? They may have no academic credentials recognised by the University. Surely not FAME as a dealer? Naturally not because he has become wealthy in his trade? I honestly don't think it is something that you can control. To become a recognised expert, even of a certain maker or school, is necessarily out of your control. I think this concern about having an academic degree is overdone. Back in the 1980s the standard requirement for a tenure track position at a university was a PhD. Yet, I, with just a masters degree in computer science, was offered a tenure track position at a well regarded university with no stipulation that I needed to get a PhD. The masters was enough. Why? Because there were, essentially, no PhDs in computer science. The field was brand new. Universities were delighted get someone with a masters. Not having the typically required PhD didn't matter. As another example of degrees not mattering: Joshua Bell is now a faculty member at Indiana University. I don't know whether he has an academic degree, and it really doesn't matter if he does. He has the position based on his achievements. There are currently no degrees of any kind in violin connoisseurship. If universities were to establish programs in violin connoisseurship they would quickly find that out and be more than satisfied by hiring the Joshua Bells of violin connoisseurship, some of whom post here on Maestronet.
skiingfiddler Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Posted July 31, 2012 Begin Ben's post: Ski, Frankly the chances ARE slim. The point that I am trying to put forward, if a little cack-handedly, is that I think you could go a very long way by yourself if you had the time and financial resources available that you would otherwise put into a university qualification. The advantage of reading books like Sacconi, the Del Gesu book, the new one on Bergonzi (not looking at the pictures) and at least starting off by seeing instruments behind glass, is that by the time you get to handle something in the right circumstances - and perhaps even with an expert to walk you through, you have enough experience behind you to make it meaningful. I have seen lots of violin making students who are supposed to be passionate about Stradivari being quite impassive when confronted with the real thing because they don't yet know what to expect from it, and in a way they take it for granted. Ultimately, however it is years of seeing good violins and bad violins and making judgements about both that helps to develop an eye. For the life of me, I can't see how that would happen on the course. As for the rest, I'm playing devil's advocate... Ben End Ben's post. _____________________________________________________________ Ben, Hope it's ok to move your post to this thread.
jacobsaunders Posted July 31, 2012 Report Posted July 31, 2012 Almost every violin professional who regularly posts on this forum has explained to you in detail, why your idea of a uni course in violin expertise is really really really crap and wouldn`t work, or what negative consequences it could have for all. Most (most recently Roger) have thrown the towel. You still have had the brass neck to say that no-one has brought reasons that couldn`t be overcome against your idea, although you could read 10 pages of such, should you want too. If you should be left over on your own after another x pages, it doesn`t mean that youre pet brainwave is adopted, or not crap and useless anymore, rather that others have better things to do. I, for instance, am now going to go to bed.
lyndon Posted July 31, 2012 Report Posted July 31, 2012 while your at it how about a university degree program in plumbing, construction work, and electrical wiring. who needs apprenticeships, violin making school is for the birds, in the future youll buy violins from universities my apologies to those yanks that dont appreciate sarcasm.....
skiingfiddler Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Posted July 31, 2012 Almost every violin professional who regularly posts on this forum has explained to you in detail, why your idea of a uni course in violin expertise is really really really crap and wouldn`t work, or what negative consequences it could have for all. Most (most recently Roger) have thrown the towel. You still have had the brass neck to say that no-one has brought reasons that couldn`t be overcome against your idea, although you could read 10 pages of such, should you want too. If you should be left over on your own after another x pages, it doesn`t mean that youre pet brainwave is adopted, or not crap and useless anymore, rather that others have better things to do. I, for instance, am now going to go to bed. Jacob, I'll stick my brass neck out further and repeat that I really haven't read any reasons that a university based violin connoisseurship program couldn't possibly work. Here's my summary for the reasons people have against it, and a summary of responses to each: 1. Concern: To become a true expert, you have to see many thousands of instruments, far more than would be available to the university based student. Response: Nobody is pretending to graduate true experts, just students who have some kind of basic knowledge on which they can build a future career if they choose to. 2. Concern: It takes an extraordinary amount of time to become an expert, and a lot of time with any one fiddle to get to know it. Response: The same as for #1. 3. Concern: Any such program would flood the violin world with phony experts. Response: There are phonies in every field. Life and the marketplace tend to filter them out. And maybe some of the graduates of a university based program would have the humility to know there's more to learn. 4. Concern: Where would the faculty come from? Response: The faculty for things like violin playing, acoustics, the chemistry of varnish, the history of Europe, art history, foreign languages are already on most university campuses. Expert violin makers, repairers, appraisers, and dealers may be close by (certainly true of Ann Arbor). 5. Concern: Wouldn't all faculty have to have advanced degrees, masters at least, if not PhDs? Response: Not in a brand new field. It would be nice if some had research and publishing history. Sure enough, there are plenty of posters right here on Maestronet who have those qualifications, and I'm not talking about Maestronet posts, but major books. 6. Concern: Universities aren't interested. Response: Apparently, U of M (the University of Michigan or the University of Minnesota, one or the other) was interested enough to ask Jeffrey to draw up a syllabus for a semester course. If I've left out some concerns or misrepresented any, let me know.
skiingfiddler Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Posted August 1, 2012 (yawn) You bore me. Apparently, not enough to keep you from posting on the thread.
skiingfiddler Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Posted August 1, 2012 Me thinks they protest too much. I'm trying to figure out why. Ron, Nice to get a friendly post.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 "(the University of Michigan or the University of Minnesota, one or the other)" The former.
erocca Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Wow. Reading some of the posts in the previous thread and now this one is so interesting. It seems the most vehement and sarcastic posts are from people who seem to indicate, (to me at least), that they feel the status quo is working just fine, or not, but offering very little, or no constructive thought on how to improve the situation. Granted, through the internet, increased publications, digital photography, great exhibitions and seminars, the flow of information is better than ever before and the opportunity to see instruments is great, but isn't there still room for alternative ideas to the "tried and true"? It is also fascinating that even though the expertise and dealing scandals attract a lot of attention, discussion and criticism on Maestronet, that when there is an attempt to come up with alternative methods of influencing the business in a positive way, that they are summarily shot down. There were some 200+ posts on this topic in the previous thread, which indicates a lot of interest, and yet some of the posters call for skiingfiddler to throw up his arms in surrender of what is, I think, a serious and interesting topic. Someone said that he is "going round and round and refusing to heed the opinions and presentation of facts offered by the gracious world class experts". Since I do not know everyone who posts here, are these "world class experts" the same people who write "world class" certificates of authenticity....or not? Expertise comes in many shades, degrees and specialties. Does the fact that someone has expertise in one aspect of the violin business mean that they are necessarily qualified to decide how best to run the industry? I also seem to have missed the "facts offered" on why a formal course of study is invalid. I've always considered myself quite old fashioned and have learned most of what I know in the "tradition way", passed down from more established and recognized people in the business and yet I find the idea of an organized or somewhat formal way of dispersing information, such as in an institutional setting, quite refreshing. Naturally the questions posed by Bruce Carlson about instructors and qualifications are significant and would take thought, but I don't think they are insurmountable. Today even violin lessons are given, (with varying opinions of success), via the internet, so theoretically guest lecturers could be brought in on a regular basis for lecturers, both in person and remotely. And guest lecturers usually have interesting study specimens. Those who find the notion of some sort of course in "Stringed Instrument Identification" ridiculous, should just spend a minute and google "unusual" or "useless" college degree programs and see what you come up with and what types of things do get funded.....'David Beckham Studies' – Staffordshire University, UK, a degree in 'Puppetry' from the University of Connecticut? And again, (for the umpteenth time), it hasn't been suggested that a course of study would replace years of experience, but it could perhaps help in the process of learning. Think of a violin student who goes for his weekly lesson. The lesson,(course work), does not replace necessary practicing,(hands on experience), but a good lesson and teacher can help the student learn how to practice and grow on their own after the lessons are over.
Flyboy Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 erocca, I think you're putting the cart before the horse. On the prior thread and in the above post you make the analogy to music performance majors. The people who are accepted in these programs already have achieved some level of proficiency performing on the violin (I'd wager most have trained for a minimum of six years, if not considerably more). You know anybody under 18 (or older for that matter) who has trained daily in a similar manner as performance types in the identification of fiddles? Even prospective visual art students practice art, they probably didn't get prior training in art history or identification of artists. And you're talking of an entrance exam in visual discrimination which will winnow down the this rarefied field even further?? There are many academic subjects which are purely cerebral, say like math. For those fields there is always wide pre-college infrastructure, someone to provide guidance and ultimately feedback, letting you know if you're on the right track or not. Where is this infrastructure to guide youth interested in violin identification to let them know whether they are on the right path or not?
jacobsaunders Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 I'll stick my brass neck out further and repeat that I really haven't read any reasons that a university based violin connoisseurship program couldn't possibly work. You listed all your degrees somewhere. Evidently comprehension wasn`t one of them. Dozens of us told you in detail why you`re idea wouldn`t work, be desirable, neccesary or even of any use to anybody. These reasons are hardly echoed in your list and it is insulting to the people who have wasted there time writing to try and explain things to you, that you ignore EVERYTHING that can`t be bent into your wacky concept.
fiddlecollector Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 You listed all your degrees somewhere. Evidently comprehension wasn`t one of them. Dozens of us told you in detail why you`re idea wouldn`t work, be desirable, neccesary or even of any use to anybody. These reasons are hardly echoed in your list and it is insulting to the people who have wasted there time writing to try and explain things to you, that you ignore EVERYTHING that can`t be bent into your wacky concept. The best idea would be for you to go into your study, get your new expensive Stradivari book out (or Guadagnini as far as I am concerned) and have a good long wank at the nice pictures. That would be well within you rights, you mistake it though for aquisition of “expertise”. The one thing that all 7 billion occupents of the world have in common, is that they need people with a university diploma in such an “expertise” about as much as a poke in the eye with a short sharp stick.
Conor Russell Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 If you do get this off the ground perhaps you might send one of your chaps over here to tell me who made four fiddles, almost identical, signed Thomas Perry, James Perry, John Delaney and one unsigned. After twenty years with them, I'm still baffled.
Roger Hargrave Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 I suggest that you start with studying the violin under "Bought this from a garage sale... What is it?". If you can accurately set this in its place of origin, then you can be the Professor on your new uni course. Because like it or not, this too is a part of the equation. By the way I also recommend that you read 'Wilt'. Its old, but it still applies. And now I am bailing out of this discussion too.
Torbjörn Zethelius Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 I still can't see why this would be a good idea. Why are you so obsessed with this? You think something is lacking, apparently. Whatever it might be. Exactly the kind of course you want was held at the VMSA in Salt Lake City by Peter Paul Prier.
David Burgess Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Expert violin makers, repairers, appraisers, and dealers may be close by (certainly true of Ann Arbor). I think most of the Ann Arbor people are already doing what they want to do. If they wanted to teach more than they do now, I reckon they'd already be doing it. That may also describe a lot of other people in our business. Oberlin already has a structure set up for short intensive courses, and that works out well for those of us with other things to do. If we had a week or two of identification type expertise, could we enroll it at a level needed to pay the bills? I experimented with various concepts when I was a program director, and I rather doubt it. We've almost always had some of the major players in the expertise arena come around with instruments or bows though. Keep them there for weeks or longer? That looks much more difficult. They have things to do too. I think one of the last things we want is instructors who need the job.
candyman Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 To keep from hijacking Zefir's thread any further, this thread is a continuation of the topic of having classes and maybe full fledged university programs for training in violin connoisseurship. Maybe that topic has run its course and we're done, but at least Zefir will get his thread back. Here's the link to the old thread. For the sake of continuity, here's Bruce Carlson's post: Begin Bruce's post Personally I like books and photographs but they are for me a reminder aid of what I have already seen and examined first hand. Unfortunately, the greatest number of Stradivaris that I have ever examined together at one time is 44, for about a month and a half, back in 1987. Even today I still think I have a lot to learn about Stradivari. I am not trying to brag or be facetious but I don't think you have an idea as to how much time and effort must be put into this work even to get off to a slow start. The learning never stops.... How will the University select the course instructor? What criteria? They may have no academic credentials recognised by the University. Surely not FAME as a dealer? Naturally not because he has become wealthy in his trade? I honestly don't think it is something that you can control. To become a recognised expert, even of a certain maker or school, is necessarily out of your control. Being born to a long standing family of violinmakers and dealers can be an advantage but this too is no guarantee. Talent is not hereditary nor teachable. I think that goes for great musicians as well; or any other field for that matter. Bruce "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." attributed to Abraham Lincoln. End Bruce's post. Without overegging my merits, it seems to me that I may be the perfect instructor for this course! I have no academic credentials, no fame as a dealer, certainly no wealth, and some would describe me as out of control. In addition, I have no expertise whatsoever so no glut of "experts" could ever result from a course of my teaching. The only experience I could pass on is that of many years service to a violin house, being kept in the dark, forced to use antiquated tools, paid almost nothing, being beaten on a daily basis and given nothing more than a warm bowl of gruel and typhoid laced water. Can anyone suggest a better instructor? I could do with a retirement project.
Bruce Carlson Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Without overegging my merits, it seems to me that I may be the perfect instructor for this course! I have no academic credentials, no fame as a dealer, certainly no wealth, and some would describe me as out of control. In addition, I have no expertise whatsoever so no glut of "experts" could ever result from a course of my teaching. The only experience I could pass on is that of many years service to a violin house, being kept in the dark, forced to use antiquated tools, paid almost nothing, being beaten on a daily basis and given nothing more than a warm bowl of gruel and typhoid laced water. Can anyone suggest a better instructor? I could do with a retirement project. That's very funny but totally off the point. If you have no experience with identification of instruments then you would never be a viable candidate as an instructor, glut or no glut. Whenever I have had to do anything with the conservation of Paganini's 'Cannon' I have always consulted the academic community in areas where I knew that my competence was limited. Common sense doesn't always work. If you know your own limits and are not out to fool everyone into thinking you know everything, it becomes easy and natural to consult other people and other scholars who have greater experience than yourself in certain specific areas. Bruce
Frederick Dale Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 When Herr Machold gets out of jail,I can foresee future employment for him!
nertz Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Hey, we want him first to give a talk on the law and mislabeling! neil
jacobsaunders Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Hey, we want him first to give a talk on the law and mislabeling! neil A very good choice Neil, since he has a law degree (Mag. Juridicum) having studied at the University in both Munster and Kiel and, if my memory isn’t deceiving me, a traineeship with the (German) public prosecutor. He might even be able to find practical examples for the talk you want. I have already pointed out to Ski in the previous thread, that he already gives the course Ski’s looking for, at the Motzarteum Art University in Salzburg, and that he only need to enrol. In academic circles it is surely of little concern that he’s “excused” for the moment. I’m sure that they would get on with each other marvellously.
Michael_Molnar Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Wow. Reading some of the posts in the previous thread and now this one is so interesting. It seems the most vehement and sarcastic posts are from people who seem to indicate, (to me at least), that they feel the status quo is working just fine, or not, but offering very little, or no constructive thought on how to improve the situation. ... . If we indeed feel that "the status quo is working just fine" then why should we be offering "constructive thought on how to improve the situation"?
skiingfiddler Posted August 1, 2012 Author Report Posted August 1, 2012 If we indeed feel that "the status quo is working just fine" then why should we be offering "constructive thought on how to improve the situation"? For one thing, the status quo gave us Machold.
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