fireinthedisco Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Right, uh, my cello just fell over and hit something and the neck kind of... broke off. It was only about $300 so I guess maybe it was a bit flimsily made, but uh, I don't have another $300 to get a new one, and I'm rather hoping it can be repaired, especially seeing as I've only had it about two weeks. Here's what the damage looks like: It looks like a rather clean break really so hopefully it's not too bad. It fits right securely back into place if I press on it. I'm betting wood glue is probably not the most effective option, but I really don't know anything about this sort of thing. Assuming the neck can be reattached successfully I also don't have any idea how to set the bridge back up and etc... Any help would be dearly appreciated. Edited July 26, 2012 by fireinthedisco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielmiller Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Unfortunately, even repaired, it will most likely come out again because of where the break occurred. There is not much for the neck to hold onto there and the tension from the strings is not going to be kind to it. On top of that, you are looking to pay as much for the repair as you did for the cello. I have done this repair many times on really cheap cellos where you glue the neck back in, remove the fingerboard and countersink a bolt that goes all the way through to the heel, then glue the fingerboard back. But even this type of repair only has a 50% success rate, especially if you drop it again. If the fingerboard is not ebony, just painted black, you could glue the neck back in and drill a hole through the fingerboard, glue a dowel in and re-paint it black. Wood glue is as good as any for this repair. Just a note here that I would never do this type of repair on a nice/valuable instrument, that is another story, What I have described above is a cheap, quick fix for entry level instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 i suggest that people that recommend modern wood glue for violin repairs on a violin forum be taken out back to the woodpile and paddled repeatadly till they reform their ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think I would smash the rest up a bit too, untill it fits in the dustbin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Byrne Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Jacob's absolutely correct, but before you smash it up and throw it in the bin get a big G clamp, some expoxy, and glue the neck back on. Remember to put some pads, cardboard or similar, under the clamp. When it falls off again get out the sledge. Worth a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Someone told me that he glues breaks like this on cellos like this with Gorilla Glue. I tried it once, and it held as far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Jacob's absolutely correct, but before you smash it up and throw it in the bin get a big G clamp, some expoxy, and glue the neck back on. Remember to put some pads, cardboard or similar, under the clamp. When it falls off again get out the sledge. Worth a try if. Gorilla glue, used very sparingly. All I wnat to know is, who is doing the spanking, some are more fun than others Oded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 people are lining up to be spanked, i thought it was common knowledge that hide glue is actually stronger than these modern glues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ Ben Conover Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Junk the Cello and buy a decent new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 people are lining up to be spanked, i thought it was common knowledge that hide glue is actually stronger than these modern glues You're right that hide glue is amazing stuff and hard to beat. But Gorilla glue (urethane?) is much stronger/tougher. Epoxy tends to creep as do some other glues. I've only use G glue once or twice on rental type instruments where the alternative was to trash the instrument and there was no money for a new one. As is the case in this instance (see above post). It's still a good idea to take this to a luthier if possible as gluing this repair can be pretty challenging if you don't know what you're doing and don't have the right tool and clamps. Oded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grajki Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 You're right that hide glue is amazing stuff and hard to beat. But Gorilla glue (urethane?) is much stronger/tougher. Epoxy tends to creep as do some other glues. I've only use G glue once or twice on rental type instruments where the alternative was to trash the instrument and there was no money for a new one. As is the case in this instance (see above post). It's still a good idea to take this to a luthier if possible as gluing this repair can be pretty challenging if you don't know what you're doing and don't have the right tool and clamps. Oded The difficulty though Oded is getting a luthier to do this repair. Just look at some of the replies here on this thread and in simlar threads. As you have pointed out, the case here is that there is no money to buy another cello so the alternatives are do nothing and have a broken cello or to attempt a repair and possibly have a working instrument. Why is that choice so contentious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 The difficulty though Oded is getting a luthier to do this repair. Just look at some of the replies here on this thread and in simlar threads. As you have pointed out, the case here is that there is no money to buy another cello so the alternatives are do nothing and have a broken cello or to attempt a repair and possibly have a working instrument. Why is that choice so contentious? It's contentious because we've all been faced with a sob story and a botched repair that is a huge mess. I'm probably a bit too impulsive in responding to this cellist because I've certainly been bitten when trying to help out folks in this type of situation. I recall once where the student, who certainly looked destitute, begged us to repair his violin so he could just play it. He then took it to his teacher who scoffed at the repair and sent him off to another shop. They did a first class job for $1000 (we charged him $25!) Somehow he managed to come up with the money. The teacher still doesn't refer any of her students to my shop. No good deed goes unpunished. Oded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grajki Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 It's contentious because we've all been faced with a sob story and an botched repair that is a huge mess. I'm probably a bit too impulsive in responding to this cellist because I've certainly been bitten when trying to help out folks in this type of situation. I recall onece where the student, who certainly looked destitute, begged us to repair his violin so he could just play it. He then took it to his teacher who scoffed at the repair and sent him off to another shop. They did a fist class job for $1000 (we charged him $25!) Somehow he managed to come up with the money. The teacher still doesn't refer any of her students to my shop. No good deed goes unpunished. Oded Fair enough. In this case though, with that in mind it is probably disingenuous to suggest to the original poster that 'It's still a good idea to take this to a luthier if possible as gluing this repair can be pretty challenging if you don't know what you're doing and don't have the right tool and clamps.' in the knowledge that 'No good deed goes unpunished'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Byrne Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 But this is not a repair shop, it's an information source, amongst many other things, and if someone like fireinthedisco wants to do a quick bad job himself what's the big deal. The forum should be able to accommodate all sorts , from this heap of rubbish to whatever. Telling him to dump it is a bit too cynical if you ask me. He's not going to come back and get us all into trouble if he botches it up. Speaking of botching it up, what about drilling a hole through the fingerboard and countersinking a long screw down through the heel, filling the hole after of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireinthedisco Posted July 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Isn't wood glue stronger than wood...? And guys really half of these comments are terribly unhelpful. Telling me to toss it or some of these sarcastic comments just make it harder for me to tell which information actually is helpful. I'm not going to throw it away, I'm going to try to fix it. One person said they used gorilla glue in a repair like this and it held. This certainly sounds like the simplest option (and thus the hardest to mess up). The other suggestion seems to be gluing it (with wood glue), then either removing the fingerboard and drilling a bolt through or just going straight through the fingerboard (I'm not sure if it's actually ebony). I assume this bolt is somehow made of wood (I've never heard of wooden bolts)? It seems like metal would be a terrible idea here seeing as wood and metal cool and heat up at such different rates and that would invariably work loose. Also, I really would have no idea how to remove the fingerboard. Then there's a debate it seems on which glue should even be used -- wood, hide, or gorilla. I'm not a glue guy. I wouldn't know myself. So what should I do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 ...Then there's a debate it seems on which glue should even be used -- wood, hide, or gorilla....So what should I do? There are a number of different types of wood glue; hide glue is one type of wood glue. Whatever glue you use should be capable of withstanding steady tension. This criterion rules out the use of white glues like Elmer's or yellow glues like Titebond. Hide glue is very good at resisting steady tension, but the sufaces being glued need to fit together very well. Hide glue is not very strong when used as a gap filler. It's hard to know how well the irregularly broken pieces of your neck will fit together. I don't know what qualities Gorilla Glue has that might be relevant to your situation. All I know is that someone recommended it to me for this situation, I tried it once and it seemed to work. You will want to be sure you have a good clamping set-up with properly shaped pads for good clamp seating on the fingerboard and on the back button. Try clamping the neck together without glue several times to make sure everything will go smoothly when you apply the glue. I tape the clamping pads to the fingerboard and button with masking tape so that they stay in position by themselves while I am playing with the clamp. If you use Gorilla Glue, be sure to read and follow the instructions. This glue tends to expand and oooze out of the joint, becoming very hard to remove from anything it touches, so I stuck masking tape all around the joint to make clean-up easier after the glue dried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Byrne Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 If you really want to do this yourself then I suggest you use Gorilla glue as suggested by someone else. It's available in two drying times, rapid and slow, take your pick, but don't get it on your fingers, it doesn't clean off easy. No one said use a timber bolt, I said you could place a long screw down through the fingerboard. No one said take the fingerboard off. You'll need to pilot drill a hole first and countersink the screw as you don't want it proud of the FB. If all of this sounds too complicated, which it isn't, then perhaps you should get a friend who knows to help you. Anybody with basic wood working skills can do this. Btw, if you make a mess of it don't blame me Edit . . . didn't see Brads post above, he's give a very good description of clamping set up which is vital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UG Fiddlesmith Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 I do 2 to 4 of these a month, mostly for the school system. I use only hot hide glue as it doesn't creep and is strong as the wood itself. If someone else has already tried to fix the break I usually bow out. I usually remove the fingerboard, line up the neck, glue and clamp. I then bore a pilot hole about 10/1000" larger than the root diameter of the screw (I use SPAX bolts which have sharp threads and are stainless steel). I counterbore to accomodate the head of the spax bolt which is a hex head, drive the bolt in with a socket wrench. Bore the hole at a considerable angle just missing the curve; I often place two smaller wood screws on each side of the SPAX bolt feeling that they help resist lateral twisting. See Weisharr & Shipman about the angle of the pilot hole. See Chuck Traeger about steel bolt versus wood dowel; the wood will shrink and break the glue bond. I have seen lots of loose wood dowels in repaired necks. I usually have to counterbore the fingerboard to clear the head of the bolt, then lineup the fingerboard and glue it on. I wait several days before I bring it up to pitch. I have not had a failure on this method and the repair although visible is usually hidden by the graffiti. My charges are usually in the range of what the poster paid for his instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireinthedisco Posted July 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 I do 2 to 4 of these a month, mostly for the school system. I use only hot hide glue as it doesn't creep and is strong as the wood itself. If someone else has already tried to fix the break I usually bow out. I usually remove the fingerboard, line up the neck, glue and clamp. I then bore a pilot hole about 10/1000" larger than the root diameter of the screw (I use SPAX bolts which have sharp threads and are stainless steel). I counterbore to accomodate the head of the spax bolt which is a hex head, drive the bolt in with a socket wrench. Bore the hole at a considerable angle just missing the curve; I often place two smaller wood screws on each side of the SPAX bolt feeling that they help resist lateral twisting. See Weisharr & Shipman about the angle of the pilot hole. See Chuck Traeger about steel bolt versus wood dowel; the wood will shrink and break the glue bond. I have seen lots of loose wood dowels in repaired necks. I usually have to counterbore the fingerboard to clear the head of the bolt, then lineup the fingerboard and glue it on. I wait several days before I bring it up to pitch. I have not had a failure on this method and the repair although visible is usually hidden by the graffiti. My charges are usually in the range of what the poster paid for his instrument. Some things in your post confuse me a bit. (Well, I really don't know what any of it means, but some things seem just, unclear.) "Bore the hole at a considerable angle just missing the curve;" Which curve exactly are you referring to? And uh, how do you remove the fingerboard? I'm going to try to enlist my dad's help when he gets back in town, he's got all sorts of tools and hardwareish knowledge as he's building a plane or something, but he's not much of an instrument guy. He'll probably be able to understand these suggestions much better than me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 The critical part of this repair is lining everything up. Place the bridge centered between the FF holes, dry clamp the neck in place and note how the neck lines up with the bridge by sighting down the length of the fingerboard and seeing how the edges of the bridge correspond with the eges of the bridge. Measure the distance from the end of the fingerboard to the belly. You will want to check that the neck lines up and is the proper height during and after you glue the neck. You are correct about bolts expanding and contracting at different rates than wood. If I use a bolt it is in the form of a threaded rod that is anchored at the base and has a washer and nut at the top end (under the fingerboard) and acts as a permanent clamp. The threaded rod does not contact the neck except at the bottom and top of the hole. But this is all a bit to complicated to get into. In my opinion there isn't any need for a bolt or reinforcement if you use Gorrila glue. Yes, do pay attention to instructions of how to clean up gorilla glue, it expands as it dries and can make quite a mess. Oded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlemark Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Gorrila glue cleans up easily with alcohol or xylene if you get it before it hardens. I will usually glue clamp set aside for about 10 to15 minutes then wipe the fommed glue with either alc or xylene whichever is closer. Most comersal instruments can handle both but you might want to check before crunch time. some varnishes CANNOT HANDLE ALC. so test on varnish and clean up squeeze out befor it hardens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 The Gorilla glue web site FAQ says to use paint thinner for clean up. Paint thinner usually refers to mineral spirits or turpentine not to alcohol. Oded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Luthier Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 You might recover some of your 'investment' selling it for parts on eBay to some handy person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 gorillas in the mist......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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