Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

repaired stick, how bad is it for the value


chrissweden

Recommended Posts

Good bows that have been splined can be of enormous benefit to musicians. I've two friends with splined Sartory's--one a distinguished violist at the Univ. of Pennsylvania and the other a violinist at our local university. I have a Hill (stamped Hart & Son) that I purchased for $500 with a pinned head. Unfortunately, the pin failed shortly after I purchased it but André Lavoye of Wilder and Davis in Montréal repaired it beautifully with a spline and I doubt that it will ever fail again. It's a lovely bow currently on loan to one of my students.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And my friend Peter has a huge list of clients who prove that point. Even a Sartory with a well executed repair along the lines of the OP's bow would sell for a good whack.

I can't see how a spline (for instance) can hugely affect the playing qualities of a bow, providing the weight is appropriate. I don't understand the nuances of the engineering, but it seems to me that once you get about 2/3 of the way to the tip, the subtleties of camber and taper become less critical.

To suggest that a Peccatte with a pinned head is worth next to nothing is to suggest that the price has nothing to do with how good the bow is in use. Of course, that's an argument that can be advanced quite seriously, it parallels the "Old Italians vs. Moderns" debate.

My own experience tells me that I would far rather use a Claude Thomassin with a pinned head than any good Hill bow in perfect condition. Lucky for me that it will cost less than half as much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course not ....

Like everyone else I have learned from much experience that condition is everything - if I'm buying as a dealer, I wouldn't buy a bow with some kind of repair, since I know I'll have it for 5 times as long before I sell it. Better to put 5 times as much money into a bow in good condition, sell it promptly and re-invest. Peter, however, has a business dedicated to selling very good bows which have been restored/repaired, so people go to him for that sort of thing. The web has made this sort of specialization easier.

But as a player, I would always try out a nice French bow with a spline if I saw one at auction - in fact personally I find splines can be very beautiful, and I rather like them in and of themselves. I would have no hesitation in using a splined bow for a public performance, and would think someone very silly if they were fearful of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is probably a very healthy exchange. Like most exchanges, there is some polarization of belief, interpretation and emotion, however.

Here is how I see it:

A bow that has been repaired at a critical area is, and always will be, a bow that has been repaired at a critical area.

Some damage/repairs have proven to be more reliable than others... hence some players are more at ease with these more reliable repairs and more willing to rely on the bows. This creates a specific market for them. This is an area in which adhesive technology may certainly play a role in the future. Reliability, in terms of a stick repair, means the repair doesn't separate. As the techniques for repair develop, there may be other stick repairs that prove reliable... and at that point some players may accept these faults (in the market) as well. It will still be a segment market.

Belief that "it's as good as... so it should be worth... " is fruitless, in my opinion. Market value is hindsight, not anticipatory. Anticipatory valuation is called speculation.

The concern that a busted Maire, or Peccatte, or other fine bow with original mounts is as worthless as a busted Paesold isn't a valid concern as long as the rules of depreciation and salvage values are followed. While these rules and values are as subject to change as the cost of a barrel of oil, so far they seem much more stable. I'll point out that the depreciation applied to a violin with a repaired soundpost crack in the back has changed little over time. That flaw also places the instrument into a segment market, BTW.

I have been asked a number of times by players considering a repaired bow (splined) if its a "good investment". In my opinion "investment", in terms of risk and ROI, is't why someone should buy a repaired bow.

Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But as a player, I would always try out a nice French bow with a spline if I saw one at auction - in fact personally I find splines can be very beautiful, and I rather like them in and of themselves. I would have no hesitation in using a splined bow for a public performance, and would think someone very silly if they were fearful of that.

Although I realise that many disagree with me, I have significant reservations against “splined” (I wonder where that word came from) bows. Since this operation makes the head, if anything, stronger than it was before, it should be reasonably obvious that it will break just where the “spline” finishes next time, leaving the proverbial dog`s breakfast. Further, as someone who spends much of his time trying to make his violin repairs invisible as much as possible, it seems curious or barbaric that defaceing a bow in this way is accepted, although a pin through the mortice wouldn`t only avoid optical defacement, but, if drilled in the right direction, would actualy be a mechanical, rather than simply glue joint. It strikes me to be a bit like fitting a soundpost patch into the outside of a violin.

I think it perfectly all right for someone to enjoy playing his old broken bow, good luck to him. He`s kidding himself IMHO if he thinks it`s worth anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When a repaired work is "guaranteed" to my knowlege it is only good for a period of time.

If my car transmission has been repaired and guaranteed. It means for 3 months or 90 days of not failing again (explicitly stated) .

If it fails beyond that perod of time it will not be fixed free. I have asked when the 90 days would start

if it is repaired second time. It starts from the first time of repair work. They said.

Any repaired work I know could last for a long time. " guarantees," is hardly necessary. Repairmen are professionals. They are good or they

would not be in that business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will be kind enough to post some photo's of the bow.

I just weighed the bow and was surprised that it only weighted 57 gram! But i must say that it is missing about 50% of it's hair, so it would weigh around 59.5 with full hair.

Length is normal at 74.4

P.s I find it strange that violins by Italian masters with neckgrafts, soundpost cracks, replaced ribs etc... remain almost their entire value, even when the repair affects the sound. Why is this accepted? I would never play on such a violin personally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.s I find it strange that violins by Italian masters with neckgrafts, soundpost cracks, replaced ribs etc... remain almost their entire value, even

when the repair affects the sound. Why is this accepted? I would never play on such a violin personally.

Where did you get that idea, Chris? Replacement of vital parts does affect value of instruments... but I think it's important to understand how the repairs relate to value.

Repaired frog cracks affect the value of a bow much less than a broken head, as does a cheval, end crack in the butt, or a bushing. On a instruent, restorations to the "vital areas"

depreciates the value more than a flank crack or saddle crack... or even a grafted neck.

BTW: might want to size those photos down just a bit. They're hard to view, especially on a laptop, and stretch out the text on the rest of the posts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You purchase a repaired bow because you like the way it plays and sounds more than the things that you can afford that are not repaired. You do not buy them as investments. They are workman's tools. Much like a professional musician who has an accident in the pit and has the head broken off of a fine bow. You repair it, get paid out for the depreciation (you did have it insured, didn't you?!)and go on playing as you did before. You buy another un-repaired bow to keep in your case just in case the repair fails.

Every single day, fine bows are broken through use and mis-use. Perhaps broken bows will have investment value, or greater-than-utility value, when we eventually reach the point where there are almost no old bows that have survived intact. But that would be Speculation...

Beautiful repair, but it isn't the orig. head and it's just another joint to possibly fail. Buy them because you like them, not to make money on them, unless you are a restorer or dealer who employs one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I deal on a low level, selling bows/violins to fellow orchestra members or conservatory students with a tight budget. But not in repaired bows or serious repaired instruments.

I play with a JJ Martin, yet this Ouchard is just as good, that's why I am surprised.

I do not believe that it will crack at the joints as the V is on 4 sides and nicely woven just like when you wove your fingers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well personally I think if you got this for E300 and it plays nicely then it's a complete bargain. I'll give you E400!

I take it from the photos that it came from an auction house, maybe at the recent Vichy sales?

To me the frog and pin look quite typical of Emile Francois Ouchard, and I wonder why they would say it was a collaboration between father and son, and yet date it between 1925 and 1928, when Ouchard (pere) had only just set up on his own?

Or do I have my facts wrong?

Actually I've realized there may be a bit of an optical illusion in the photos - does the pearl slide flare out very slightly towards the ferrule, or do the sides remain parallel?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About the flaring be the judge yourself :)

He set up his shop in 1923

....These bows are sometimes of very beautiful quality, in particular thanks to the collaboration of Emile Auguste (bows from 5 to 10)....

This is the same bow as bow 5

It didn't came from an auction house, I made all photo's myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you know that both father and son Ouchards demonstrate flaring pearl slides, you are surely knowledgeable about depreciation in relation to grafted sticks!

No offence intended, but who dated this bow between 1925 and 1928? Whoever did so must have some pressing reason for saying the bow is a collaboration between father and son, I'm wondering what that reason is .....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...