Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

repaired stick, how bad is it for the value


chrissweden

Recommended Posts

Recently I acquired a nice bow by emile francois ouchard from his collaboration period with his son (E.A)

The only problem is that the stick has been repaired. The head is not original and created by the restorer, though in the style of Ouchard, this new stick and the old stick are integrated in a long V shape. About 5cm's of stick is not original.

I must admit that the stick is neatly repaired.

How bad is this in terms of value? An appraised said that if the bow was without any repairs it was worth €6000 and now it's worth only €1000 according to him, is this a correct estimate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my limited experience as a bow buying costumer, a bow of which the repair involved replacing a piece of wood would make the bow loose almost all of its value, especially if it is the stick itself we are talking about and not a piece of the frog or head alone. As far as I know, insured bows that break are counted as total losses. I think it looks a little better if no wood needed to be replaced, or the damage was only part of the frog or a part of the head that bears no structural function.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree, the frog and screw are in mint condition, if someone who has a bow by the same maker with a damaged frog or missing screw he/she would be very happy with an authentic replacement part. According to the appraiser, the frog and screw alone are worth more than what I gave for it. But then there's the long quest of finding an Ouchard owner that needs a new frog.

Anyway, the bow plays very good, even better than my C.N Bazin so I will keep it for myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a nickel mounted Emile Ouchard Pere which is in perfect condition ... what are the ethics of replacing the frog with an authentic silver frog & pin? It would certainly double the value of the bow .....

:rolleyes:

How long a search was that?

By the way Jeffrey, I'm not trying to do a deal - I genuinely want to know whether this is seen as acceptable practice or not. In fact my bow has a certificate and I'm not about to replace the frog.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Recently I acquired a nice bow by emile francois ouchard from his collaboration period with his son (E.A)

The only problem is that the stick has been repaired. The head is not original and created by the restorer, though in the style of Ouchard, this new stick and the old stick are integrated in a long V shape. About 5cm's of stick is not original.

I must admit that the stick is neatly repaired.

How bad is this in terms of value? An appraised said that if the bow was without any repairs it was worth €6000 and now it's worth only €1000 according to him, is this a correct estimate?

++++++++++++++

Why anyone wants a broken bow ? it is too much for €1000 . After it is repaired and then re-establish a value. Otherwise we are talking

imaginary bow. In your case it not imaginery. It has been repaired. If you pay €1000 for it then it is valued €1000.

If it plays well for you, then it is worth it. I have seen $3,000 (US D) bow is just a bow that looks and plays ordinarily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin, that won't work as the frog is clearly from the collaboration period and it won't look authentic on earlier or later bows by the father. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the frog was by the son now that's more interesting!

P.s for what it matters, i paid under €300 for it so can't go wrong there I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what you have is a frog on a stick, the frog has some value, if it is original, but the stick has little or no commercial value, lots of players sware be repaired sticks that are only worth 500 or less, but good luck trying to sell it.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris, what you have aside from monetary value, if the bow is the real thing, a good playing bow, your words, and a piece of bowmaking history. It is more than a frog on a stick. I think you will have a hard time selling it, but the value seems to be pretty close. Most players/consumers don't want something that is broken, but if the repair is good and the bow still plays well, that is in the big picture, the more important fact.

An original frog should never separated from the bow unless the bow is just not repairable. In this case, it would be a great shame and loss to separate what was made to be together. I think it is easier for bowmakers to understand this than dealers. It sounds like you got a good deal on it, and if I were you, I would keep it in my personal collection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a nickel mounted Emile Ouchard Pere which is in perfect condition ... what are the ethics of replacing the frog with an authentic silver frog & pin? It would certainly double the value of the bow .....

:rolleyes:

How long a search was that?

By the way Jeffrey, I'm not trying to do a deal - I genuinely want to know whether this is seen as acceptable practice or not. In fact my bow has a certificate and I'm not about to replace the frog.

Glad you won't be doing that switch Martin! :)

Your scenario is a good one to spur discussion, though... so I'll make a few comments.

Upgrading of bows (from one mount to a more desirable one) isn't a new idea. I know a number of good Mirecourt bows (Pajeot, Maire, etc.) that I suspect of metal replacement or frog switches. While I do not view this practice as ethical, once done, you're just dealing with "what is".

I disagree with Jacob and others about repaired bows having "no value", though to be fair, Jacob said "no retail value". That could arguably be true at the time of damage, but the market has proved it often incorrect after restoration.

What I am saying is that the market, and not necessarily our sensibilities or feelings, dictate retail value. There is a market for many repaired bows once all facts are known by all parties, therefore there IS a retail value for them.

This is by no means a simple issue, however. The AFVBM made some effort to set guidelines for depreciation of various faults back in the late '80s. They were very good starting points, but adjustments to these guideline numbers are ongoing. In addition, obtaining an agreement of actual value after restoration isn't always a slam-dunk.

The way I personally approach a "fatal flaw" (damage to the stick that requires serious intervention and loss in value) is first to determine the effect of the repair on the original, the expected stability/integrity of the restoration, the acceptance of such a repair in the retail market, and the salvage value of the other undamaged parts.

A new grafted head is a pretty serious alteration. Any value remaining to the stick itself will be minimal, and may be non-existent. If the repair is good one, however, the stick has a utilitarian value, even if little monetary value.

Salvage value will be dictated by the market for the parts (original frog and button). The demand/value for a Sartory frog, for example, is far greater than the demand for a Bazin or other less important maker... and is probably easier to market than a frog from a less consistent maker (even a more valuable one). I's also important to recognize that a musician/owner will probably not have easy access to the secondary, salvage, market however. It is also important to understand that the salvage value is NOT equal to the amount a bow is depreciated when it does not have an original frog and button, or the amount a frog and button by the same maker may increase the value of another bow once its purchased and installed.

The market has, at this point, been more willing to accept a head repair (like a spline) than a head replacement or lift repair... and due to certain modern adhesives, some restorers are guaranteeing their spline repairs unconditionally. Therefore, in the market, a splined bow tends to retain a bit more value than bows with other, more serious and less understood or "proven", flaw repairs.

So... in an imagined case (grafted head on a decent bow), as long as the frog & button are original and in good to excellent condition, while the stick has little or no value, the frog and button would have salvage value. For sake of argument, let's say that for bow X, valued at 6,000 increments of a stable currency before it was damaged, would have a frog & button that was worth 10% to 15% in salvage. Once restored, I get 600 to 900 units... so an insurance valuation of 1,000 units, may not be all that far off. The caveat, should the bow stick fail again, will be for the owner to gain access to the salvage market... but in reality, that was the case before the bow was damaged in the first place.

Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeffrey, thanks for that very sane and detailed analysis.

I know of a bow or two which had silver replacement - this was pretty common practice in at least one busy London shop according to a friend who worked there ...

I don't like the idea, but I do get very frustrated at the prejudice against nickel mounts - some phenomenal bows can be had with nickel mounts, and to my mind these are generally more of a bargain than repaired silver-mounted versions. But players don't want them, and I think a lot of what turns up at auction is bought to be "upgraded" in one way or another.

There's a growing market for repaired bows - even the OP's repair might not be regarded as quite so drastic as to knock the retail value down to E1000, though I would say it's entirely down to the quality of the repair. It makes a big difference if you can't really see it .......!

Pinned head - I imagine the reduction in the retail price might be as much as 50%, the reduction in the trade price would be more, inevitably, dealers being less susceptible to salesmanship!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin & rcmacd;

Though there may certainly be exceptions, and the market is subject to change, I'd say that a fine antique bow (with it's original fittings in good to excellent condition) with a spline or well accomplished pin repair will retain about 30% of it's value (more or less), today. The market seems to bear this out rather convincingly.

I say this with certain imagined limitations in mind... and without regard to a buyer who may have other motives... and a less desirable, more commercial bow might retain little to no value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree with Jacob and others about repaired bows having "no value", though to be fair, Jacob said "no retail value".

Reading through all of your thread, I don`t think you really disagree with me at all. The bow has no RETAIL value, but a residual value for its owner, should he like playing on it. The RETAIL value comes, when he doesn`t like playing it anymore, and wants to sell it. I would get more than a crinkly mouth trying to charge money for a bow with a grafted head, particularly since there is no shortage of bows for +/- 1000, without grafted heads to chose from. That violin makers help each other out privately with “spare parts” isn`t really “retail” at all, and between my freinds is normaly free of any charge.

BTW, the Deutsche Geigenbauverband also set guidelines back in the 90`s, I could send you a copy privately if you are interested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading through all of your thread, I don`t think you really disagree with me at all. The bow has no RETAIL value, but a residual value for its owner, should he like playing on it. The RETAIL value comes, when he doesn`t like playing it anymore, and wants to sell it. I would get more than a crinkly mouth trying to charge money for a bow with a grafted head, particularly since there is no shortage of bows for +/- 1000, without grafted heads to chose from. That violin makers help each other out privately with "spare parts" isn`t really "retail" at all, and between my freinds is normaly free of any charge.

BTW, the Deutsche Geigenbauverband also set guidelines back in the 90`s, I could send you a copy privately if you are interested.

Yes, we're really rather close. That's why I was careful to quote exactly what you said and tried to clarify salvage value. I would very much like to see the guidelines you mentioned.

I think it's important that all who are actively involved in this, on a professional level, have as much good data as possible. I'll be happy to return the favor with the guidelines I have, BTW.

I think the factor that has changed since the '80s and '90s is the actual behavior of the market. These repaired bows DO change hands privately and through resellers much more often now than then... so there is a retail following... and therefore a retail value.   Honestly, within reason, I don't have as much difficulty with the trend as you may. It does allow players an opportunity to own something that may have more "quality", or be closer to their ideal, than they might otherwise be able to afford... but there are limits to what this is all worth that I believe must be carefully considered and communicated.

To be honest, I also would not choose to handle a bow with a grafted head, though I might choose to offer one with a spline... if I liked it enough (and knew who did the spline).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The head is not original and created by the restorer

A "grafted head." Wow, who would have thought that such a bow exists. You would think that with modern glues a head would have to be absolutely ground into pure saw dust before someone would choose to graft on a new head rather than glue the pieces together.

I suppose, though, that a head could be knocked off and then lost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A "grafted head." Wow, who would have thought that such a bow exists. You would think that with modern glues a head would have to be absolutely ground into pure saw dust before someone would choose to graft on a new head rather than glue the pieces together.

I suppose, though, that a head could be knocked off and then lost.

It is, as usual, pointless to speculate what was wrong with bits that no longer exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...some restorers are guaranteeing their spline repairs unconditionally...

Jeffrey, Whenever I hear about these spline guarantees, I wonder exactly what they mean. Perhaps you can explain. To me, the question is: What does the restorer guarantee to do if the spline fails? Refund the cost of the spline? Re-do the spline for free? Replace the bow with an eqivalent (whatever that means) bow? Replace the bow with another bow by the same maker? Pay the value of the bow (however that might be determined) to the owner?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A "grafted head." Wow, who would have thought that such a bow exists. You would think that with modern glues a head would have to be absolutely ground into pure saw dust before someone would choose to graft on a new head rather than glue the pieces together.

I suppose, though, that a head could be knocked off and then lost.

++++++++++++++

A bow is like moving parts of a car. Its integrity is important. If I know it is a repaired bow I would play it gingerly which

ruins everything of playing a violin..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what you have is a frog on a stick, the frog has some value, if it is original, but the stick has little or no commercial value, lots of players sware be repaired sticks that are only worth 500 or less, but good luck trying to sell it.....

That's why you market it to poor college/rich high school students.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeffrey, Whenever I hear about these spline guarantees, I wonder exactly what they mean. Perhaps you can explain. To me, the question is: What does the restorer guarantee to do if the spline fails? 1) Refund the cost of the spline? 2) Re-do the spline for free? 3) Replace the bow with an eqivalent (whatever that means) bow? 4) Replace the bow with another bow by the same maker? 5) Pay the value of the bow (however that might be determined) to the owner?

Brad, if one of your repairs fail, do you offer to buy the client a new violin? :)

Depending on the restorer, 1 or 2. Numbers 3, 4 & 5 make little sense to me. How is the client worse off than when they started? If a failure occurs once the bow is sold on, the same logic applies concerning depreciation and/or salvage value.

For what it's worth, I have clients who have been using splined and well pinned bows for decades without difficulties. In some cases, it was a well loved bow that happened to break while they owned it. In other cases, the player purchased a bow at or after the time it was repaired.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...