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edi malinaric

Curly Ebony!

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Hmmm . . . So if we unknowingly and in good faith buy an ebony fingerboard from a well-established and reputable dealer, we have no expectation of it being an honest and good-faith transaction under the law? And if by some chance the fingerboard has been smuggled into the country illegally and ends up in our hands through legitimate channels, then we are not considered to have been swindled and placed in legal jeopardy? It's an all too common thread in judicial thinking to punish the victim for the crime.

And the beat goes on . . .

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Hmmm . . . So if we unknowingly and in good faith buy an ebony fingerboard from a well-established and reputable dealer, we have no expectation of it being an honest and good-faith transaction under the law? And if by some chance the fingerboard has been smuggled into the country illegally and ends up in our hands through legitimate channels, then we are not considered to have been swindled and placed in legal jeopardy? It's an all too common thread in judicial thinking to punish the victim for the crime.

And the beat goes on . . .

How is this hypothetical situation you pose any different than any other transaction, not involving wood, where you might have gotten swindled? The recourse is the same for everyone (regardless of Lacey) when you get swindled, where you got sold stolen/misrepresented goods. You sue the guy that sold you the goods.

Think of it this way: Lacey is just the means of separating the legit law-abiding dealers from the so-called "reputable" dealers.

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2 quotes from Huxley, same book;

"We know that the pursuit of good ends does not justify the employment of bad means. But what about those situations, now of such frequent occurrence, in which good means have end results which turn out to be bad?"

"Given unchecked over-population and over-organization, we may expect to see in the democratic countries a reversal of the process which transformed England into a democracy,"

Aldous Huxley. Brave New World Revisited (1958)

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We've all got wood that we have had in out stashes for twenty years. Hell, some of the woods take that long to season. No one ever keeps track of receipts that long nor would we have forseen a future back then where we would have needed to. Making things for a living out of wood is tough enough without all this BS. I'm very reputable and If you make me keep track of where I get exotic woods these days OK, but I can't tell you if my chunk of 20 year old ebony was harvested by enslaved chilren and I won't throw it away due to lack of knowledge of it's history. That waste would be truly criminal. Even if I did have modern paperwork I could lie about the old stuff and say it was part of the new legal stash. These laws are meant for the big boys, wheeling and dealing containers internationally. Hell, I can't always remember my Mom's birthday these days.

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Did having an import license, and keeping records protect Gibson or Nagel?

I would not know such details. Are you privy to the facts presented to the Court? Did they, in fact, show you those documents or just say that they did?

Having some current experience with the Court, I can say that people are often less than honest and rather inaccurate with their claims.

Again, I do not know the details of Gibson and Nagel. I suspect no one on MN really does. But our penchant for "truthiness" can drive us to the wrong claims.

Stay Tuned,

Mike

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Again, I do not know the details of Gibson and Nagel. I suspect no one on MN really does.

And I suspect that no one can completely know and abide by the law, no matter how good their intentions.

The General Accountability Office (GAO) reports that in the four fiscal years from 1996 to 1999, a total of 15,286 new federal regulations went into effect. This doesn’t include new state regulations.

If you think this is reasonable and manageable, can we quiz you on them?

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Because as I understand it, the final purchaser is left holding the bag for the product having met legal requirements all the way through the supply chain. I trust Susan, but was she standing there, verifying that everything was legal, with the proper paperwork in place (in a foreign language and a foreign legal system) as the trees were cut down and processed? Or does she need to accept some things on faith herself?

Someone who is a lawyer, please correct me, but requiring that all legal requirements are met, as in the history of transfers, is a basic concept to our legal system. This legal concept is not an exclusive for the Lacey Act.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

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And I suspect that no one can completely know and abide by the law, no matter how good their intentions.

The General Accountability Office (GAO) reports that in the four fiscal years from 1996 to 1999, a total of 15,286 new federal regulations went into effect. This doesn't include new state regulations.

If you think this is reasonable and manageable, can we quiz you on them?

I am sure that all those regulations do not apply to me and my little business. I do read and watch what affects me. So far not much except for some proposed postal changes.

And let me assure you that most likely they all do not apply to yours too. But then again, David, maybe they ALL do. How can you sleep at night? :D

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I am sure that all those regulations do not apply to me and my little business. I do read and watch what affects me. So far not much except for some proposed postal changes.

And let me assure you that most likely they all do not apply to yours too. But then again, David, maybe they ALL do. How can you sleep at night? :D

It helps that I don’t have any employees. And that’s the major reason why I don’t have any employees, which is kind of a shame for the people who have wanted to work here. I’d rather make violins than push paper.

Have you looked into the simplest stuff, like where various informational and warning signs need to be posted, and what size they need to be? Do you have emergency exit signs with a battery backup, in case of a power failure? Do you know “case law” relating to the various regulations, so you know how courts have actually interpreted them? It’s not enough just to read them.

When my girlfriend was involved in a startup company a few years ago, even though it was mostly composed of people with major business administration and managerial experience, they felt it necessary to hire a “human resources” consulting firm to help them wade through that small part of the legal mess, the part having to do with not just the laws relating to employees, but doing it in such a way as to reduce the threat of lawsuits.

Myself, I have an outside consultant (I think he’s a Yale business and accounting school graduate) who specializes in very small businesses. I’ve heard from other people in his profession that he spends a good deal of time each year attending the various seminars dedicated to keeping these people updated on changes in the law, and case law. There is absolutely no way I could do it on my own.

One year at Oberlin, we had an attorney speak on issues relating to the fiddle business. It was quite an eye opener. She's considered one of the top experts in the fiddle-biz, and will be speaking again at the upcoming Federation Convention.

Edit:

She will be part of panel which includes two US government representatives or spokespeople. The title of the presentation is,

"Federal Regulatory and Law Enforcement Issues - The Lacey Act, Homeland Security Investigations' Cultural Property Program, and U.S. Customs Laws."

So maybe you run a totally legal business, or maybe you don’t, and just don’t know it. ;)

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So maybe you run a totally legal business, or maybe you don't, and just don't know it. ;)

If you guys think this is crazy...spend a few years in the "environmental coatings" business....overseen by the FDA .....

Recently a home owner purchased a "non-compliant" product [made by one of my competitors] from a small retailer [the product had been purchased when it was "compliant" and remained on the shelf unsold]. A lawsuit was brought by the home owner, and accepted by the courts, against the MANUFACTURER....thinking the manufacturer had deeper pockets I guess. Settled out of court for and "undisclosed sum".

on we go,

Joe

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Joe's brought up another complex issue.

Are you EPA (not to mention OSHA) compliant in all your use of things like solvents, or do you even know?

That's directed at anyone who reads this, not you, Joe.

Once upon a time, I called the EPA to find out how to properly dispose of some solvents. That was a reasonable and good-faith effort, don't you think?

They gave what I considered good and practical advice, for a small user like me. Turns out that what they recommended wasn't exactly legal. :blink:

Even they can't stay on top of everything. :lol:

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Burgess and Robson are quite right that when you face all of the rules and regulations, you are overwhelmed. I guess I just slowly slogged through everything over the years. Made some mistakes too, but found people who could help. Yes, some who should know better, do not. <_<

If you really want to see regulations, go into medical equipment as I once did. (Shoot me!) We had a full time lawyer to keep us out of trouble. :blink: Still, we got into trouble plenty of times. We were sued too!

Burgess is right that the rules change and suddenly you are not legal. I just don't get paranoid over this; do my earnest best; and, make the adjustments as needed.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

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Same goes for black water, you are not supposed to empty black water tanks unless you are at xx miles fro the coast (depends where)....in th US I believe all marinas are obliged to have a suction system for all small boats (not sure if it'sa state thing) - - - I hear it's hard to find one......I believe the fine is Us 10.000.... (Is that right?)...in the great lakes from what I hearsay not even gray water (????).........man when I see a cruise ship anchor by...a 5.000 population city consuming tons with a 5.000 head restaurant and bars....you can see the water change...they are not disposing it in the ocean...at least not here....

It's crazy...but from what I understand we are supposed to know all the laws and abide by them....all of them...there must be lots of conflicting ones also....

as Obelix used to say......these landlubbers are crazy!

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I buy my fingerboards from Canada. They have the legal right to sell them so I have no worries. I am in the UK. The wood is brilliant black ebony, no streaks or cracks.I wouldn't make a fingerboard from scratch, why? It is most rediculous to do and not good for your health.

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I get great ebony blanks from Susan at Taylor - USA. She often has a booth at the VSA meetings.

Hey cousin ;), can you put in a good word for me with Susan, I've tried to register with her at Taylor with no luck. My money worked at their booth in Cleavland, but since then,,,,,

Edit, ah sorry all, I didn't read the thread past Mikes first post. Didn't realise it was getting on to serious subject matters.

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... can you put in a good word for me with Susan, I've tried to register with her at Taylor with no luck. My money worked at their booth in Cleavland, but since then,,,,,

Darren, just call her. The number I have is 515 279-0627. I agree that she has good stuff (and knows the difference), and I don't even bother getting things like fingerboards or pegs from the big wholesalers any more. Too many disappointments.

Larry Kass has some good fingerboards too, and both can be better than what I've seen from Klier.

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Joe's brought up another complex issue.

Are you EPA (not to mention OSHA) compliant in all your use of things like solvents, or do you even know?

That's directed at anyone who reads this, not you, Joe.

Yes...by the rules current the last time I had a chance to check. My other product line is so "clean" they haven't yet invented a set of regulations that impinge on us.....................yet.

on we go,

Joe

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I buy my fingerboards from Canada. They have the legal right to sell them so I have no worries. I am in the UK. The wood is brilliant black ebony, no streaks or cracks.I wouldn't make a fingerboard from scratch, why? It is most rediculous to do and not good for your health.

To avoid additional import/export entanglements (and thus unnecessary cost) it is generally best to find a importer that belongs to your country's trading block. In the EU the analogous set of supply chain rules (ITR) as Lacey (which only applies to US) are going into effect in March 2013. The EU set of regulations have the benefit of more detail and thus easier to follow for virtually all luthiers compared to Lacey.

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We've all got wood that we have had in out stashes for twenty years. Hell, some of the woods take that long to season. No one ever keeps track of receipts that long nor would we have forseen a future back then where we would have needed to. Making things for a living out of wood is tough enough without all this BS. I'm very reputable and If you make me keep track of where I get exotic woods these days OK, but I can't tell you if my chunk of 20 year old ebony was harvested by enslaved chilren and I won't throw it away due to lack of knowledge of it's history. That waste would be truly criminal. Even if I did have modern paperwork I could lie about the old stuff and say it was part of the new legal stash. These laws are meant for the big boys, wheeling and dealing containers internationally. Hell, I can't always remember my Mom's birthday these days.

Regarding "making things for a living out of wood is tough enough...," I think you've been around the block enough to figure out that life isn't fair, especially when there are competing interests.

To others who argue "there's too many regulations" I'll quote Chuck Erikson, who I certainly wouldn't characterize as a fan of the Lacey Act or CITES, when responding to someone who was advocating (ranting) the repeal of Lacey Act:

That's just not going to happen, and shouldn't. In only a short time, Lacey's been very effective at shutting down almost 30% of the illegal timber which was entering the U.S. and destroying sales and jobs in the flooring and furniture industries. That income and workforce is being restored at a scale which dwarfs the tiny little guitar industry's concerns. Every piece of major legislation always produces unintended consequences, and that's what needs to be fixed, so that Lacey works just as well for the music industry (and many other smaller markets) as it does for the huge corporations. Usually it's not that much of a problem to fine-tune things legislatively; but because endangered species are also such an emotional issue there's tremendous push-back from NGO's to not touch anything about Lacey for fear that it will "gut" the entire program. The big wood industry feels that Lacey is working perfectly, so are also actively campaigning against amending Lacey in any way. It's naive to think that lacey will be repealed and that advocating for the changes we need is a waste of time. With that attitude, why bother to write to your district rep? You prefer doing nothing and just letting the industry go down the tubes?

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/reply/1404445/LACEY-ACT-UPDATE-AND-YOU#reply-1404445

Complaining about "too many regulations" just illustrates how woefully uninformed you are for anyone to take you seriously.

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Darren, just call her. The number I have is 515 279-0627. I agree that she has good stuff (and knows the difference), and I don't even bother getting things like fingerboards or pegs from the big wholesalers any more. Too many disappointments.

Larry Kass has some good fingerboards too, and both can be better than what I've seen from Klier.

Thanks David for the number, I'll call

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...That income and workforce (the flooring and furniture industry) is being restored at a scale which dwarfs the tiny little guitar industry's concerns....

...The big wood industry feels that Lacey is working perfectly, so are also actively campaigning against amending Lacey in any way.

Complaining about "too many regulations" just illustrates how woefully uninformed you are for anyone to take you seriously.

On the contrary, it looks like you've highlighted some reasons why we might have legitimate concerns. Maybe your argument would "fly" :lol: better on a flooring or big wood industry forum?

It certainly doesn't look like "big wood" will be "standing up" for us. :D

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..The recourse is the same for everyone (regardless of Lacey) when you get swindled, where you got sold stolen/misrepresented goods. You sue the guy that sold you the goods.

Thanks, I'll pass that along to my legal department.

Uh oh, I can't find their listing in my company internal directory. :o

That's really strange. I was sure it was on page 42, just above my Mergers and Acquisitions department.

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Thanks, I'll pass that along to my legal department.

Uh oh, I can't find their listing in my company directory. :o

That's really strange. I was sure it was on page 42, just above my Mergers and Acquisitions department.

My man Winthrop from Goldman Sach's is on it. If there is a way to make things more complicated, he can do it, a master of obfuscation. I mean really, what would Bain Capital {owned by Romney, who owns guitar center and musicians friend, gibson's #1 distributor} have to benifit off such actions imposed by the Lacey act?

:lol::lol::lol:

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