Secrecy in lutherie

[T Ford]

After learning the small amount I know about the famous makers and the history and evolution of the modern violin etc, I've become curious as to how much communication or sharing of info, techniques occurs between makers. I recently saw a reference to some 'secret' book by Stradivarius...it looked like a joke. Anyway, got me thinking.

It is obviously a competitive industry in some ways, and a benevolent art in others; where is the balance today? Where has it been in the past? Have any legendary luthiers who were well-known for exceptional-sounding violins before their death left any instructions or notes as to how to attain the best sound?

[Brad Dorsey]

...I recently saw a reference to some 'secret' book by Stradivarius...

The book you heard of is probably is probably Simone Sacconi's "The 'Secrets' of Stradivari."

In the book's title, the word "secrets" was put in parentheses*, because Sacconi's opinion was that Stradivari, contrary to wide popular misconception, had no secrets. Instead, Sacconi said that close examination of Stradivari's instruments suggests that he was a "genial, reflective, methodical craftsman who left nothing to chance or improvisation, and who availed himself of 150 years of local experience in the practice of musical instrument making."

*Edit: I meant to say "quotation marks" (or "inverted commas" as the Brits call them), not "parentheses."

[MANFIO]

The best way to pass good knowledge is the relation master/pupil... Even so, Omobono and Francesco Stradivari knew all their father's secrets but...

A good instrument is a result of thousand correct choices that were well executed, some of them interlinked. A "secret" by other maker may not work with your instruments because you make many other things differently.

But of course that some secrets are kept or circulated just in a small group, as in every other field of human knowledge.

[Stephen Churchill]

Its a complex topic. As discussed in other threads here, the violin making industry operates much like an art market. Hence, very competitive and certainly not logically My brother tried entering the art photography market many years ago. In that area the world was divided into commercial photographers and 'art' photographers. Your success depended allot on who you knew and their opinion of your work. If you had the acceptance of the elites, you were an instant success, if not, you toiled in obscurity. Maybe there are some parallels with making violins. In the end, you have to do this because you love it.

On the topic of secrets, Sacconi was referring to the ancient 'lost secrets' of the 'great' makers and specifically Strad. This is a little different then modern trade secrets. This is based on the belief that if you can recreate Strad's workshop and his processes you too will make Strad quality violins... Its probably more likely that Strad make the best violins he could with what was available to him at the time, and that any ancient secrets were ones created in myth by historians. If you read Sacconi you'll find that he believes there are no secrets, just a man who had a great eye, a great skill and a passion. This is why Sacconi put 'secrets' in parentheses.

Modern makers no doubt have their own 'secrets' but I think this partly experience and mostly finding the ways of doing thinks that work for you. Forums like Maestronet are great for breaking down some of the barriers in sharing knowledge. Personally I believe that there are few true 'secrets' out there. As a violin maker you have to find the ways of making that work for you, perfect them and make the best violins you can. Then everyone will wonder what your secret is

Stephen

[kubasa]

Modern makers no doubt have their own 'secrets' but I think this partly experience and mostly finding the ways of doing thinks that work for you.

Very well worded!

[Carl Stross]

If you read Sacconi you'll find that he believes there are no secrets, just a man who had a great eye, a great skill and a passion.

Stephen

Great skill for what ?

[FiddleDoug]

I'm not saying anything about this.

[Don Noon]

Today, there are definitely some secrets that makers are reluctant to share, mostly related to exact details of varnish or graduation. I imagine it was moreso in the past, but I don't really know for sure. The reason for sharing or secrecy is worth examining. I'll propose some:

Motivation for secrecy

- Large investment in time or money to develop something... hard to justify giving this away for free, even if it doesn't give any clear advantage.

- Aversion to shooting yourself in the wallet... like Joe would not be expected to give the exact recipes for his products.

- Using materials or methods that would be frowned upon by customers or other makers... Minwax stains, wood from China, CNC machined parts, etc.

- Details that are variable or in flux... why share something that isn't final?

- Materials or methods that depend on too many peripheral factors, and thus wouldn't be likely to be useful for anyone else.

- No percieved personal benefit for sharing... secrecy by default.

Motivation for sharing

- Benevolence

- Getting useful information from others in exchange

- Seeking recognition as an expert (possible marketing strategy)

- Ego

- Social interaction with other misfits with similar interests

- Income from giving workshops/seminars

Thinking about these, it is easy to see why top established makers might not want to share... there's not much in it for their benefit.

[Carl Stross]

Today, there are definitely some secrets that makers are reluctant to share, mostly related to exact details of varnish or graduation. I imagine it was moreso in the past, but I don't really know for sure. The reason for sharing or secrecy is worth examining. I'll propose some:

Motivation for secrecy

- Large investment in time or money to develop something... hard to justify giving this away for free, even if it doesn't give any clear advantage.

- Aversion to shooting yourself in the wallet... like Joe would not be expected to give the exact recipes for his products.

- Using materials or methods that would be frowned upon by customers or other makers... Minwax stains, wood from China, CNC machined parts, etc.

- Details that are variable or in flux... why share something that isn't final?

- Materials or methods that depend on too many peripheral factors, and thus wouldn't be likely to be useful for anyone else.

- No percieved personal benefit for sharing... secrecy by default.

Motivation for sharing

- Benevolence

- Getting useful information from others in exchange

- Seeking recognition as an expert (possible marketing strategy)

- Ego

- Social interaction with other misfits with similar interests

- Income from giving workshops/seminars

Thinking about these, it is easy to see why top established makers might not want to share... there's not much in it for their benefit.

I was convinced Joe has already given away his recipe on MN...Are you saying he's only maintaining a marketing presence ?

[lyndon]

if theres a big secret in the business that many here would like to know, its what is the secret of success in the business??? honesty?, dishonesty?, hard work? marketing? ability? luck? etc etc

david burgess, are you in on the secret, if so wed like to hear from you......

[MANFIO]

One of the good things about sharing is that eventually you will receive some information too... In Italy today there are too many "secrets", almost no sharing and...

[TimRobinson]

After learning the small amount I know about the famous makers and the history and evolution of the modern violin etc, I've become curious as to how much communication or sharing of info, techniques occurs between makers. I recently saw a reference to some 'secret' book by Stradivarius...it looked like a joke. Anyway, got me thinking.

It is obviously a competitive industry in some ways, and a benevolent art in others; where is the balance today? Where has it been in the past? Have any legendary luthiers who were well-known for exceptional-sounding violins before their death left any instructions or notes as to how to attain the best sound?

"Thinking is good" - Dr Who. "I think thinking is so important, my lord" - Baldrick

As has been pointed out by others Sacconi was being paradoxical in his use of Secrets in the title of his book (BTW, at least in the English edition I read secrets is in inverted commas, not parentheses, indicating that the use of the word was not meant to be taken literally). The secret is that there are no secrets. Without doubt Strad and other craftspeople had ways of doing things that worked for them, but these were not magic bullets which if followed by others would result in instant Strad.

" Have any legendary luthiers who were well-known for exceptional-sounding violins before their death left any instructions or notes as to how to attain the best sound?"

Do we ask the same of othe great artists of the past? The legacy they have handed down to us is their work. The title of another well know violin making book makes the point...

Regards, and let's keep thinking...

Tim

[David Burgess]

Motivation for secrecy

- Large investment in time or money to develop something... hard to justify giving this away for free, even if it doesn't give any clear advantage.

- Aversion to shooting yourself in the wallet... like Joe would not be expected to give the exact recipes for his products.

- Using materials or methods that would be frowned upon by customers or other makers... Minwax stains, wood from China, CNC machined parts, etc.

- Details that are variable or in flux... why share something that isn't final?

- Materials or methods that depend on too many peripheral factors, and thus wouldn't be likely to be useful for anyone else.

- No percieved personal benefit for sharing... secrecy by default.

Motivation for sharing

- Benevolence

- Getting useful information from others in exchange

- Seeking recognition as an expert (possible marketing strategy)

- Ego

- Social interaction with other misfits with similar interests

- Income from giving workshops/seminars

Thinking about these, it is easy to see why top established makers might not want to share... there's not much in it for their benefit.

Interesting thoughts, Don.

Your willingness to share that suggests that Maestronet is finally getting beyond the point where people are trashed for not giving everything away. In my opinion, a lot of attractive sounding "red herring" methods and ideas have been offered in the past, along with "baffle 'em with bullshit", maybe in lieu of just saying, "I don't know", or "That's as much as I want to say about that".

[Michael_Molnar]

Actually, this thread reminds me of an issue I have with MN: the anonymous lurkers who do not contribute but mine these posts for any nuggets.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

[captainhook]

Well, Mike, I don't have a lot to contribute that hasn't been covered over and over. Also haven't stumbled onto a lot of nuggets lately.

Lyle

[Michael_Molnar]

And some nuggets even turn out to be Fool's Gold.

[Oded Kishony]

A secret revealed becomes just another opinion, as a stolen apple is always sweeter and found money brings the greatest joy.

Human nature.

Oded

[James M. Jones]

And some nuggets even turn out to be Fool's Gold.

Some "nuggets" are soft and even have a bit of smell about them! What's up with that?

Seriously though, for you old guys I can see how there are very few unturned stones in the field, but for guys like me, (ignorant, wide eyed and geographically isolated) there is a vast wealth of experienced and concerned folks willing to share a few of their hard won "secrets". In fact(for me) the last few weeks have been especially informative,due to a few pro posters here. thanks for sharing.And thank you to MN for making the sharing possible. !

[Carl Stross]

Some "nuggets" are soft and even have a bit of smell about them!

Small, soft and smelly...What could that be ?

[James M. Jones]

A secret revealed becomes just another opinion,

Oded

Yes....Sometimes ,and sometimes that "secret" is a hard reality, that is not readily apparent to the uninformed ...or ill informed ...or deformed.....In the smithy we have a long tradition of secrets,to share them with outsiders meant death (literally) at points in our history, and without their informed knowledge, you will get nowhere.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Lutherie is one big secret to those who don't know how to make violins. Then as you become more versed at it, the 'secrets' will unfold themselves.

[Adam Edwards]

The best way to pass good knowledge is the relation master/pupil... Even so, Omobono and Francesco Stradivari knew all their father's secrets but...

A good instrument is a result of thousand correct choices that were well executed, some of them interlinked. A "secret" by other maker may not work with your instruments because you make many other things differently.

But of course that some secrets are kept or circulated just in a small group, as in every other field of human knowledge.

I have thought this way for a long time , Sam Z was very open with us recently and I walked away thinking that there isn't such a big gap between his knowledge and mine as I thought there was . He admits that there are lots of things he can't explain. I don't think he has a big book of secrets he his keeping to himself , I played his violin he had with him ... totally awesome, worth every cent !!

[Bob Spear]

What "Secrets?" (As an author, the word "secrets" in the title of Sacconi's book is in double quotation marks, which indicates that the word is not to be taken literally. For example, in school long ago I was taught that my nickname, "Bob" should always appear in quotation marks because it wasn't really my name. Glad I don't have to do that any more. When quotation marks are called for in a phrase that is already in quotation marks, the use of the single quotation mark keeps the construction from becoming confusing, but European rules of grammar are often slightly different than American rules).

Now, speaking of confusion, what "secrets" can there possibly be in a violin? There it lies on the bench in front of you, whole and complete, and completely open to examination. If there are secrets, then they must be hidden in plain sight, right? Most secrecy seems in the mind to me. If someone has great hand skills and can make the box a little cleaner than you can, that's not really a secret.

One of the great benefits of our present time in the world of lutherie has been the constant research and reexamination of the violin that has begun to provide solid answers to things we had previously considered secrets. We got this benefit as a direct result of the work started by the Catgut Acoustical Society (now an independent forum of the VSA) almost 60 years ago, which fostered the idea of openness and collaboration. You give some, and you get some. To my mind it is a win-win situation, and I think it has contributed in no small way to my belief that the best violins ever made are being made right now.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

which fostered the idea of openness and collaboration. You give some, and you get some.

I was involved in industrial new product development for about 40 years and it was a world full of trade secrets, patent protection and litigation, and espionage.

One way of preventing others from using an idea is to publish it. People assume free information is worthless. Everybody has it so it gives them no competitive advantage therefore they don't use it. They might even be suspicious that it is a decoy leading them in a wrong direction.

So now I sometimes talk freely about what I'm doing in my violin work. This may give an outside appearance of being generous and helpful to others while actually being quite selfish.

[James M. Jones]

Now, speaking of confusion, what "secrets" can there possibly be in a violin? There it lies on the bench in front of you, whole and complete, and completely open to examination. If there are secrets, then they must be hidden in plain sight, right? Most secrecy seems in the mind to me. If someone has great hand skills and can make the box a little cleaner than you can, that's not really a secret.

As long as a fellow has a good instrument,ideally several..... Still there are nuance like, sprung bass bar, wood density, varnish type and application methods,Glue type and application method,not to mention grounds and colors,ect. Also things pertaining to methods of work,tools used,accuracy and tolerance, and questions like, how important is this or that detail?,things like arching, thicknesses, and tap tones....thing related to tone production qualities and the luthiers ability to steer the outcomes.I've yet to see anyone here revel their "secret(s)" to success....perhaps bits and pieces but never the hole enchilada.What fun would that be?

We are blessed in this day and age,with a very open society that values the exchange of information,could this be due to a widening of market audience,where an accomplished worker has less concern of being knocked down by the competition? I know from my personal experience (20 yrs blacksmithing) that I will share as much as is asked, with no fear of being out gunned, because the market place is so large,compared to the 1700's,and my reputation is relatively secure.But, If someone were to approach me with the intent of being a professional violin maker,and also live close by,to be completely honest, I just might be more than a bit reluctant to share all my "secrets"