The Good and Bad of Composite Violins

[GoldenPlate]

Hello there,

I am wondering what are the positives and negatives of a composite violin?

Are the values of composite violins generally much lower than a regular violin?

What are the other insights or things that should be cautious when buying a composite violin?

Thanks so much for the input!

[gowan]

Hello there,

I am wondering what are the positives and negatives of a composite violin?

Are the values of composite violins generally much lower than a regular violin?

What are the other insights or things that should be cautious when buying a composite violin?

Thanks so much for the input!

Reasons for a composite instrument by a famous master to exist:

1. A terrible accident happened to a complete instrument such that the only possible "repair" was to make a new back or a new top.

If the original instrument was renowned for its sound and the reconstruction preserved that then the new instrument would still be interesting to a player but its value would be much less than the original instrument.

2. The master maker left an unfinished instrument (e.g. no top or no varnish) and another luthier finished it. In this case, again, the instrument is worth far less than if it were entirely by the master maker but may be desirable for players depending on the sound and playing characteristics and who the second maker was who finished the instrument.

[GoldenPlate]

Does composite violin mean a complete replacement of either top or back?

Could it be a repair that's more minor than this?

Reasons for a composite instrument by a famous master to exist:

1. A terrible accident happened to a complete instrument such that the only possible "repair" was to make a new back or a new top.

If the original instrument was renowned for its sound and the reconstruction preserved that then the new instrument would still be interesting to a player but its value would be much less than the original instrument.

2. The master maker left an unfinished instrument (e.g. no top or no varnish) and another luthier finished it. In this case, again, the instrument is worth far less than if it were entirely by the master maker but may be desirable for players depending on the sound and playing characteristics and who the second maker was who finished the instrument.

[Bill Yacey]

Would a carbon fiber top on a fine Strad fall into the "composite" category?

[Omobono]

Reasons for a composite instrument by a famous master to exist:

There are apparently cases of sheer 'canabalism' also,I believe,

where one instrument might suddenly become two.....? (Spreading your assets?)

Can anyone document a famous example of this?

The 1728/29 Strad in the hands of the Satu Vänskä of the Australian Chamber Orchestra

is apparently a case of perhaps a reassembly of parts not of the same instrument (by Beare's?) that were previously of two separate composite instruments?

It can still be claimed to be "original in all its parts"!

[MANFIO]

Zukerman's viola is a composite Guarneri.

[Omobono]

Zukerman's viola is a composite Guarneri.

Hope you are well, Luis?

I found a link (with your entry at violinist.com)and read that his viola is an Andrea Guarneri with a "filius Andrea" top.

fascinating! (I'm presuming that is accurate information)

Thanks.

Omo.

[Michael_Molnar]

How well do these composites sell?

Stay Tuned.

Mike

[lyndon]

ive got a beautiful old composite violin with italian top german back, the varnish matches very well but the purfling's twice as wide on the top!!

[GoldenPlate]

Hello Lyndon,

Would you mind providing pictures for this violin?

Just curious how a composite violin would look like.

Thanks!

ive got a composite violin with italian top german back, the varnish matches very well but the purfling's twice as wide on the top!!

[Omobono]

The Castelbarco Strad is another example:

castelbarco

[lyndon]

Hello Lyndon,

Would you mind providing pictures for this violin?

Just curious how a composite violin would look like.

Thanks!

sorry no pictures yet, its not actually a composite yet, just a top and back/sides that are close enough they could be matched, and would involve lengthening all for corners on the top, im kinda wondering if its worth the work, the top and back are in excellent condition, and id have to find a grafted scroll to match

[Omobono]

The Castelbarco (Kux) viola story is even more bizarre:

- a cut-down Strad viola d'amore with Vuillaume back, Amati head, and altered ribs:

(The lengths to which one will go....!)

Something about Castelbarco - a penchant for composites?

composite viola

[wooden]

I have seen this one and wondering which makes a composite to be ascribed to one maker or another. Just the top?

[Dave Slight]

Composite instruments can represent good value for the player if they have been done well, understandably they are not not worth as much as a comparable original instrument.

It all depends how well they have been done, and sometimes for what reason. In the past, restoration techniques were not what they are today, and as a consequence badly damaged parts were often replaced, either with newly made parts, or perhaps something from another damaged old instrument they may have had in the workshop. This can be particularly true in the case of scrolls, a spare old scroll would save a lot of work.

Bellies are some of the most frequently replaced parts, as they are much more prone to serious damage. A good replacement belly made 150 years ago might not be that obvious once it has received some genuine wear over the years. Often you will find that an old belly has been reused, with varying degrees of success. In order to make these fit the existing ribs, a lot of work may have been done to the edges and purfling. Sometimes the old belly may have been extended or reduced in size.

The most dangerous types of a composite for a buyer is where an instrument has been made up from some original parts with the pure intent to deceive. The famous London maker John Lott was known for this, and in the 19th C. a number of these were openly sold as genuine old Italian instruments. If you ever get the chance to see one they are impressively done.

Attributions for a composite instrument will always tend to favour whichever maker (if known) holds most value in the marketplace. This could be seen with a Stradivari violin sold a few years ago where I think only the back was made by Strad, the rest made by various makers. It was still catalogued as a Strad even though only 25% was actually made by him. To me this seems kind of wrong.

Things to avoid at all costs are cheap trade instruments badly put together from various bits. These are probably the most common type of composite because it was not worth doing anything else (apart from burning them).

[gowan]

I think there are quite a few violins by famous makers that have a scroll by someone else. I suppose these could be cases of "cannibalism" as mentioned above by Omobono. A Guarneri del Gesu with a scroll by someone else is still called a Guarneri del Gesu rather than a composite instrument.

[MANFIO]

The technique of grafting new necks to old scrolls was developed by the Mantegazzas, prior to it a new neck and scroll was made and the original scroll discarted. Charles Beare mentions that there may be some old boxes containing old scrolls to be discovered in some place.

I agree that composite instruments that sound good offer a good oportunity to players who are looking for a good "tool" to make music.

Many will frown upon composite instruments but as the offer of good old instruments decreases they will be more and more accepted by the market, I think.

Imagine the Vuillaume "in pieces" recently sold by Tarisio. As a player I would prefer another healthy Vuillaume with a replaced scroll or top to the original "puzzle" one retored from hundreds of broken pieces.

[GoldenPlate]

Hello Dave,

Thanks so much for such a thorough explanation!

Composite instruments can represent good value for the player if they have been done well, understandably they are not not worth as much as a comparable original instrument.

It all depends how well they have been done, and sometimes for what reason. In the past, restoration techniques were not what they are today, and as a consequence badly damaged parts were often replaced, either with newly made parts, or perhaps something from another damaged old instrument they may have had in the workshop. This can be particularly true in the case of scrolls, a spare old scroll would save a lot of work.

Bellies are some of the most frequently replaced parts, as they are much more prone to serious damage. A good replacement belly made 150 years ago might not be that obvious once it has received some genuine wear over the years. Often you will find that an old belly has been reused, with varying degrees of success. In order to make these fit the existing ribs, a lot of work may have been done to the edges and purfling. Sometimes the old belly may have been extended or reduced in size.

The most dangerous types of a composite for a buyer is where an instrument has been made up from some original parts with the pure intent to deceive. The famous London maker John Lott was known for this, and in the 19th C. a number of these were openly sold as genuine old Italian instruments. If you ever get the chance to see one they are impressively done.

Attributions for a composite instrument will always tend to favour whichever maker (if known) holds most value in the marketplace. This could be seen with a Stradivari violin sold a few years ago where I think only the back was made by Strad, the rest made by various makers. It was still catalogued as a Strad even though only 25% was actually made by him. To me this seems kind of wrong.

Things to avoid at all costs are cheap trade instruments badly put together from various bits. These are probably the most common type of composite because it was not worth doing anything else (apart from burning them).

[Guy_Gallo]

The violin in this gallery has been deemed a composite by Beare. 18th c Viennese back and 19thc Italian front was his guess. No maker suggested for either.

Frankenfiddle

[jacobsaunders]

The violin in this gallery has been deemed a composite by Beare. 18th c Viennese back and 19thc Italian front was his guess. No maker suggested for either.

Did he say what on earth is Viennese about the back?

[Bruce Carlson]

Hello there,

I am wondering what are the positives and negatives of a composite violin?

Are the values of composite violins generally much lower than a regular violin?

What are the other insights or things that should be cautious when buying a composite violin?

Thanks so much for the input!

Hi caspace,

I've seen a number of composite violins in my time and some that were acoustically quite valid.

One I recall in particular was a repair of a Giovanni Maria Del Bussetto where the belly had been replaced by J.B. Guadagnini. This complete with a repair label dated Milan 1754. Guadagnini didn't want to fool around and try to match the varnish of the Bussetto and simply revarnished the whole thing! Both makers are easily identifiable.

Another violin I know has a back and ribs by Francesco de Emilianis of Rome with a scroll and head by Giovanni Marchi of Bologna. The two makers in this case are recognisable.

One of the earliest court cases involving a composite was a violin made up entirely of original Stradivari parts [EDIT: from different instruments] and sold by David Laurie as an original "integral" Stradivari. I don't remember the exact date but it was likely in the 2nd half of the 1800's. I understand he lost the case.

Bruce

[martin swan]

On the subject of composites, I would be very interested to hear a contemporary maker's perspective on this.

Assuming you make more than one violin on the same model ...

Do you go through a process of tuning the back to the front (or the front to the back), or would it work fine to interchange fronts between different violins on the same model?

The market is particularly down on composites from the same maker, but I suspect this is more because it disturbs our sense of an integral & deliberate creation/artwork, rather than because there are necessarily any tonal defects.

[Omobono]

One of the earliest court cases involving a composite was a violin made up entirely of original Stradivari parts [EDIT: from different instruments] and sold by David Laurie as an original "integral" Stradivari. I don't remember the exact date but it was likely in the 2nd half of the 1800's. I understand he lost the case.

Bruce

Would this be the instrument in question... the "Court" Strad?

Laurie

It mentions an article in the Strad magazine of January 1978 concerning the court case.

I think this has come up in a previous thread somewhere.

[Guy_Gallo]

Did he say what on earth is Viennese about the back?

Nope. Realize this was not a certificate appraisal, but a verbal assessment if such a cert was even possible. I think he was more interested in the other violin I had with me (a Voller) for which he did write a cert.

Still, that was his suggestion suggestion. I'm open to others. What's it look like to you?

[Omobono]

Nope. Realize this was not a certificate appraisal, but a verbal assessment if such a cert was even possible. I think he was more interested in the other violin I had with me (a Voller) for which he did write a cert.

Still, that was his suggestion suggestion. I'm open to others. What's it look like to you?

Hello Guy. Hope you are well?

I like the f-holes on your "frankenfiddle" - very confident and Grancino-esque!

Can't help with an ID though, sorry.

Omo.