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Alessandro Gagliano on Ebay


GoldenPlate

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In my view it's by no means rubbish, but the bid is already a bit higher than I would consider reasonable, and it will doubtless go higher.

It looks to me to be a nice violin with a lot of repairs, some quite important. The upper half of the table appears to have been trodden on repeatedly!

Didn't this violin come up for comment last time it was listed? I'm sure I thought it was Tyrolese and Peter Ratcliff identified it as French ....

Auction scroll rules forbid me from commenting on the seller, but do you really want to buy this violin when 1. you can't return it if you don't like it 2. the seller won't accept paypal (which means you can't return it even if it's significantly not as described) 3. the seller uses private listings and 4. this violin was "bought" recently by a bidder who "didn't pay"?

Of course I'm sure this seller wouldn't do such a thing, but it has been known for a seller with private feedback to bid on his own items, win them, leave positive feedback, cancel the sale (in order to get back the final value fee) and then re-list them. Some sellers even refuse to actually sell to the highest bidder, sometimes claiming that the violin in question was "stolen" etc ..... without paypal it's possible for a seller simply to fail to send bank account details if they feel the final bid price was too low.

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Very Beautiful Violin:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wunderschone-uralte-Geige-Alexander-Gaglianus-me-Fecit-Neapoli-17-/170808698170?pt=Streich_und_Zupfinstrumente&hash=item27c4fde53a#ht_21330wt_1282

What do people think? Is this the usual rubbish?

Very interested in bidding the violin!

I do not know what it is but-rubbish it is not. Some significant condition issues exist which may not be completely apparent from the photos and would keep me from bidding, but if I had it to examine in hand I would be much more comfortable.

Jesse :)

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Tyrolese = Mittenwald

No it isn`t. Mittenwald is Bavarian, as are the violins made there.

When you actually take a serious look, there wasn`t a fat lot of tyrolean makers at all. From the ones you get to see, there is of course Stainer, then a few, like Psenner in Innsbruck and the several families in Vils (near Füssen on the tyrolean side of the border) like Rief, Petz etc. If you ignore several ametuers, that`s about it. There were quite a few vm`s in and from South Tyrol, Goffriller (from Brixen) comeing randomly to mind.........

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I stand corrected ...I knew I could rely on you!

I use "Tyrolese" in the sense that Bonhams and other auction rooms use it - every sale week there are at least 10 nice violins described as "Tyrolese", I would say the term's in very wide usage in the UK to cover this kind of violin. "Mittenwald" seems to be used more for violins post 1850 or so, even when they're not Mittenwald, an issue people have already touched on in the "quiz for addie|" thread.

A quick look at Wikipedia reveals that Mittenwald is in "Tirol" - where am I going wrong exactly? Is it to do with shifting boundaries? Maybe the Tirol has moved in the last 200 years. I would appreciate any clarification you can offer.

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I stand corrected ...I knew I could rely on you!

I use "Tyrolese" in the sense that Bonhams and other auction rooms use it - every sale week there are at least 10 nice violins described as "Tyrolese", I would say the term's in very wide usage in the UK to cover this kind of violin. "Mittenwald" seems to be used more for violins post 1850 or so, even when they're not Mittenwald, an issue people have already touched on in the "quiz for addie|" thread.

A quick look at Wikipedia reveals that Mittenwald is in "Tirol" - where am I going wrong exactly? Is it to do with shifting boundaries? Maybe the Tirol has moved in the last 200 years. I would appreciate any clarification you can offer.

Bavarian troups once marched into Tyrol, but that was in Napoleonic times and I am not aware of any such movement in the other direction. Wikipedia (or Bonhams) can assert that the sun orbits around the earth if they like, which wouldn't stop Mittenwald being in Oberbayern

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" Taking a closer look at the map I see that under the current political regime the outskirts of Mittenwald are about 1 mile from the border with Tirol - it's easy to understand why people in the UK are so loose with the term "Tyrolese". "

But its like calling a Scot "English", likely to cause offence, on both sides.

I once, long before the Schengen agreement, had to stop at the "German" / Austrian border in Kufstein to make a customs declaration. It being lunchtime I was having problems finding anyone official to deal with and when I eventually found someone I asked if he was from the German customs. "No!" he replied, "Your're in the Free state of Barvaria here!"

Its a sensative area.

Rob

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But its like calling a Scot "English", likely to cause offence, on both sides.

Its a sensative area.

Rob

I completely understand - not only am I an Anglo-Scot living in Scotland, I also live part-time in Croatia, a few miles from the Krajina which is so sensitive the border is still peppered with landmines.

I get that there is an important political distinction, I'm just trying to get my head round whether there is actually such a thing as a Tyrolese violin, or whether the UK trade would be best to abandon the term "tyrolese" in favour of "Mittenwald" or "Austrian" - seems like "tyrolese" is a bit of a fudge

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An interesting article on Tyrolese violin-making

Music In The Tyrol

in which it is claimed that the Tiroler Schule (Tyrolese School) was "as much at home in Fuessen as in Mittenwald".

Jacob, I bow to your grasp of political history, but I think it's fair to call this violin"Tyrolese" as per my post no.2 in this thread. I don't think that violin-making traditions are quite so exact in their observation of national boundaries as administrators are.

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Not really.

It`s a map of the political shape of the area post WWI, which only muddles up a discussion about 18th C. violin making.

I believe there are some manuscript maps available indicating prior borders. I'll look and see if I can find an earlier one. The area has changed radically in terms of political rule since the 17th-18th centuries.

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The area seems to have changed radically in terms of political rule since the 17th-18th centuries.

Indeed, and there was quite a bit of local hostility -at least at first - perhaps it's abated since- over the giving of South Tirol to Italy after WW1. The locals felt quite reasonably that, while they were nominally Austrian and spoke German (for some value of German - I lived "up de waterkant"), they were actually Tirol'sche and had been victimised from start to finish.

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An interesting article on Tyrolese violin-making

Music In The Tyrol

in which it is claimed that the Tiroler Schule (Tyrolese School) was "as much at home in Fuessen as in Mittenwald".

Jacob, I bow to your grasp of political history, but I think it's fair to call this violin"Tyrolese" as per my post no.2 in this thread. I don't think that violin-making traditions are quite so exact in their observation of national boundaries as administrators are.

Should you, having already transfered Mittenwald to Tyrol, transfer Füßen there too (which it isn`t, it`s in Allgau) then it`s easy to multiply the amount of "Tirolean violins" by about 15 or 20. I think it makes life easier sticking to the facts, or do you want to transfer Vienna to Tiyrol next?

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OK we get that you don't like the term "Tyrolese" but do you take exception to the entire article?

It shows a great deal of cross-fertilization between Mittenwald and its "Umgebung" ...

I think you're really objecting to an overly vague use of language. Since you are a specialist in such intsruments I understand your insistence on precision, however, I think we'll have hard time removing the word "Tyrolese" from auction catalogues ....

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OK we get that you don't like the term "Tyrolese" but do you take exception to the entire article?

It shows a great deal of cross-fertilization between Mittenwald and its "Umgebung" ...

I think you're really objecting to an overly vague use of language. Since you are a specialist in such intsruments I understand your insistence on precision, however, I think we'll have hard time removing the word "Tyrolese" from auction catalogues ....

I have absolutly nothing against the word "Tyrolese". As a mater of fact, I did my "Meisterprüfung" there, and therefore have a "Tyrolese Meisterbrief" hanging on the wall. The article is the usual tourist broschure sort of thing. Prescision isn't an obsession, it just saves people from geting all mixed up, and doesn't cost anything.

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