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jacobsaunders
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Dear Jesse,

please forgive my initial post in this topic. The part about prices paid was of course irrelevant to the topic, which was and is about attribution. I assumed you would read the topic, which is why I addressed my post to you, as a fellow forum member. Rest assured I do not track auction sellers, but rather focus on the instruments themselves. I would also like to thank you for listing the points that led to your attribution of Mittenwald. As you are no doubt aware, I disagreed with your attribution, but failed to itemize the points that led me to say Markneukirchen-Schönbach.

They are the two-piece lower bout, the purfling, and the volute and the fluting in the throat of the same. Having looked closely at the grain and flame (as close as I can, anyhow) I don’t think the lower rib was originally 1 piece.

In your favor, the bottom of the pegbox lacks the flattened “delta,” the saddle is set into the ribs (although see Jacob’s post), and the fluting of the volute goes past 6-o’clock (but not a whole lot further). Also in your corner are the not-to-be-ignored opinions of a few other forum members!

Finally, of course, you have handled the instrument, and we have only looked at photos. I still disagree with Mittenwald, but as an evil disciple of Jacob Saunders, what can do you expect? :lol:

A slightly deviant evil disciple, if I may say so:

”The fluting in Mittenwald goes all the way into the throat, whereas the Dutzendarbeit finishes as early as 6 o’clock” means that the fluting going anything less than ALL the way into the throat is not Mittenwald.

“Mwald centre spine normally remains sharp right to the end (and is often prominent vis a vis each side) whereas the Dutzendarbeit tends to finish less sharp, or have a kind of “delta” at the bottom” would mean that the centre spine practically disappearing would fall on the Schönbach side of the fence.

I wouldn’t want to draw any conclusions from this bottom rib, since somebody has evidently had a big and hardly successful struggle with it.

Further; the rib corners go right to the end of the back/belly corners and the purfeling, in the only place that you can see it (just left of the button) speak a fairly clear language.

Mr. Hound, should he wish and provided that he hasn’t taken it to the Post Office yet, would be eminently positioned to join in on an academic discussion (which is in no way a personal one) Mwald v. Mkirchen-Schönb., if he would like too look in through the sound holes and describe the corner-blocks and linings to us.

Finally I consider the question “Verleger or Dutzendarbeit” an eminently important one, since they are two entirely different schools and the question is an every day recurring one. I am perfectly happy to ride roughshod over learned opinion here, since it is a simple question of establishing facts and drawing conclusions.

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Deviant in that I have only handled the “delta” type, not the “spine becomes spineless” type. That’s a new one for me. Also, the saddles I typically see are not set into the ribs, but are narrow and very wide--often off center (centre).

The purfling is unmistakable. No overhang at the rib corners is something I had noticed, but not put into my mental dichotomous key. The corners, well, one out of eight looking decent is about par for these. :D

Love the wonky pegbox. Oh, the wonky peg holes too. Not that these are diagnostic... just quirky and fun. B)

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A slightly deviant evil disciple, if I may say so:

”The fluting in Mittenwald goes all the way into the throat, whereas the Dutzendarbeit finishes as early as 6 o’clock” means that the fluting going anything less than ALL the way into the throat is not Mittenwald.

“Mwald centre spine normally remains sharp right to the end (and is often prominent vis a vis each side) whereas the Dutzendarbeit tends to finish less sharp, or have a kind of “delta” at the bottom” would mean that the centre spine practically disappearing would fall on the Schönbach side of the fence.

I wouldn’t want to draw any conclusions from this bottom rib, since somebody has evidently had a big and hardly successful struggle with it.

Further; the rib corners go right to the end of the back/belly corners and the purfeling, in the only place that you can see it (just left of the button) speak a fairly clear language.

Mr. Hound, should he wish and provided that he hasn’t taken it to the Post Office yet, would be eminently positioned to join in on an academic discussion (which is in no way a personal one) Mwald v. Mkirchen-Schönb., if he would like too look in through the sound holes and describe the corner-blocks and linings to us.

Finally I consider the question “Verleger or Dutzendarbeit” an eminently important one, since they are two entirely different schools and the question is an every day recurring one. I am perfectly happy to ride roughshod over learned opinion here, since it is a simple question of establishing facts and drawing conclusions.

Alas, the fiddle is on its way to Australia as we speak, having been sent out yesterday morning. It is interesting to note that in the past 60 days, I have sold twice as many violins outside the US than I have to US addresses. 2 to Australia, 1 to France, 1 to Italy, 1 to Austria, 1 to Germany, 4 to US and 3 to China. Over the past few years foreign buyers have become a much larger part of the market-probably due to the weak dollar.

I have a couple of older c. 1800 or earlier instruments. One is really quirky and the other more straight forward. If there is interest, I would be delighted to post photos for the purpose of an academic discussion, since I have no clue as to what they are other than generally Germanic. To ensure compliance with board rules, I will only post photos of instruments for this discussion not currently for sale. (Of course, I reserve the right to sell them in the future)

Jesse

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I hope y'all will forgive the slight hijacking of this thread, but I have been puttying a violin up against Jacob's checklist, and have come to the rather lame conclusion that it can be neither Schoenbach nor Mittenwald! I had assumed it was Schoenbach, circa 1850, now I wonder if it's even German ....

The label is Giovanni Grancino (nice label!), length of back 35.6cm.

Salient points in relation to the discussion ....

The rib corners stop short of the plates

Bee-stings

Relatively equilateral blocks

Small "delta" at the back of the scroll

Linings let into the blocks (all pine by the look of them)

Fluting travelling to the very back of the scroll throat

Wide central strip to the purfling

Perhaps this instrument's earlier? There seems to be a bit of a plateau around the base of the bottom block, but since this area's been repaired it's hard to say if it's significant.

Any thoughts/opinions would be appreciated, particularly a more informed application of "The Saunders Method" than I'm managing. I feel Mittenwald is definitely off the list, that's about as far as I've got.

Maybe it's "Tyrolese" ;)

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I hope y'all will forgive the slight hijacking of this thread, but I have been puttying a violin up against Jacob's checklist, and have come to the rather lame conclusion that it can be neither Schoenbach nor Mittenwald! I had assumed it was Schoenbach, circa 1850, now I wonder if it's even German ....

The label is Giovanni Grancino (nice label!), length of back 35.6cm.

Salient points in relation to the discussion ....

The rib corners stop short of the plates

Bee-stings

Relatively equilateral blocks

Small "delta" at the back of the scroll

Linings let into the blocks (all pine by the look of them)

Fluting travelling to the very back of the scroll throat

Wide central strip to the purfling

Perhaps this instrument's earlier? There seems to be a bit of a plateau around the base of the bottom block, but since this area's been repaired it's hard to say if it's significant.

Any thoughts/opinions would be appreciated, particularly a more informed application of "The Saunders Method" than I'm managing. I feel Mittenwald is definitely off the list, that's about as far as I've got.

Maybe it's "Tyrolese" ;)

The "Saunders method" list of boxes to tick off is only intended to divide between "Dutzendarbeit" and "Mittenwald Verleger", it isn't for any old violin.

For what its worth, I would call you're violin Böhemian for the moment.

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I like the fiddle. Is it German? I wonder if it could possibly be Dutch? I do not have a list of tells, but usually just match up outlines, scrolls, ffs and impressions with other attributed violins that I have seen. One interesting possibility always exists is that the attributions, even expert attributions can be incorrectly based on flawed research and attributions of a previous school of thought that new research disproves. For example, the theory that certain specific, well-known American makers copied Mittenwald violins around 1900 is flawed. What they did was to import Mittenwald fiddles in the white, graduate and finish them in their US workshops, and label them as their own. A major museum has among its collection such a "Boston" fiddle.

Jesse

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  • 6 years later...
On 3/27/2012 at 12:13 PM, martin swan said:

I think it's very rash to pay any attention to descriptions in auction catalogues! The experts employed by auction houses are often also dealers who put instruments into those auctions, buy violins from them, and scoop up unsold lots - hardly a recipe for objectivity.

I once bought an instrument which was catalogued as Italian - the expert used by the auction house also had a prestigious shop and was in the habit of issuing certificates, so I sent the violin to him for a certificate, only to be told it was "probably English". These days I tread much more warily.

As far as I know, only Tarisio is willing to guarantee its attributions and refund in the case of mis-attribution.

So whether Skinners said this is Mittenwald or not is irrelevant to the question of whether it's Mittenwald or not. My view - looks quite like a lower grade Neuner & Hornsteiner, with the bottom rib divided for the purposes of repair. IMHO!!

Oh martin how can you say such a true thing, all the experts are waiting for lot’s of money before giving a right attribution to a violin, all have their own shop and own auction, all are waiting for an instrument that they could pay a low price and  give their own attribution afterwoods, you will never have the right name without at least 5% of the commercial value of the instrument, and they all work together in this way. 

Any expert gives an attribution guarantee no more than 12years. It is very clear to understand why... 

False is much more today , than on the label. Most of the time, (except for the very known maker whose models are very often copied)  label gives you the right repairer or right maker when the violin is before 1800 . And there is so many signs of a violin before 1800/1810, that it is not so difficult for an experimented eye to give the periode. 

And after 1900, it is very easy to recognize the fake, as they are so badly made . 

It is still true : « hardly a recipe for objectivity »

 

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On 3/28/2012 at 3:34 PM, pahdah_hound said:

I like the fiddle. Is it German? I wonder if it could possibly be Dutch? I do not have a list of tells, but usually just match up outlines, scrolls, ffs and impressions with other attributed violins that I have seen. One interesting possibility always exists is that the attributions, even expert attributions can be incorrectly based on flawed research and attributions of a previous school of thought that new research disproves. For example, the theory that certain specific, well-known American makers copied Mittenwald violins around 1900 is flawed. What they did was to import Mittenwald fiddles in the white, graduate and finish them in their US workshops, and label them as their own. A major museum has among its collection such a "Boston" fiddle.

Jesse

I agree with all what I read of your comments.

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On 3/27/2012 at 5:16 PM, jacobsaunders said:

A brief and necessarily incomplete blueprint for distinguishing between Mittenwald „Verleger“ and Markn/Schönbach „Dutzendware“

Scroll/peg box

Viewed from the profile, Mwald Scrolls tend to have a pronounced “back of the head” (Hinterkopf) also a prominent “forehead” with sharpish champers, whereas the Dutzendarbeit tend to me more rounded off and over in both respects. The fluting in Mittenwald goes all the way into the throat, whereas the Dutzendarbeit finishes as early as 6 o’clock. On the back of the peg box, the Mwald centre spine normally remains sharp right to the end (and is often prominent vis a vis each side) whereas the Dutzendarbeit tends to finish less sharp, or have a kind of “delta” at the bottom.

Rib construction

In Mittenwald they used an inside mould, the Markn/Schönbach Dutzendarbeit, no mould (until later years). This results in the Mittenwald ones having the join at the end of the ribs to the C bout side, the rib ends finishing cut fairly square. The Dutzendarbeit system involved making the ribs much longer first, so that they could be cramped and glued together and then rasped off afterwards. This leaves the joint either in the centre, or indistinguishable. The ends of their ribs were then often chamfered off at an angle, so that the rib ends don’t look so thick. The Dutzendarbeit ribs often end at the furthest protrusion of the back/belly corners, whereas the Mittenwald ones stop a couple of mm before the end of the back/belly corners. Mittenwald corner blocks cover about twice as much upper/lower rib as c bout rib and the invariably pine linings of the c bout are let into the corner blocks with a point. The Dutzendarbeit method didn’t necessarily require corner blocks and therefore often didn’t have any, where they do, they mostly have, seen from the plan view a more equilateral triangle aspect. Linings are not let in to these “corner blocks”. The bottom rib of a Mittenwald Verleger violin is with occasional exceptions in one piece (or was) and normally has a notch or notches (top and bottom) to mark the middle. Dutzendarbeit with a one piece bottom rib, is so unusual as to provoke suspicion. A let in Bottom saddle can be found both in Mwald and Mkirchen, as can a non let in one, so it isn’t a reliable identification criterion at all.

Back/Belly

The Dutzendarbeit bellies were roughed out with integral bass bar, until they developed a routing machine which made fitting and gluing a bass bar necessary. This was a remnant of the old Markneukirchen tradition and was neither quicker, easier or a short cut (as I discovered trying to do one). The Mwald Backs/Bellies are, although smother, no more carefully worked out, often being either too thick or ridiculously thin. They have glued in Bass bars. Mittenwald purfeling is normally fitted far too deep, encouraging edges to break off. They tend to have “bee stings” which is less characteristic of the Dutzendarbeit. The black strand of the purfeling in Mwald seems to be stained right through equally, whereas Dutzendarbeit often has stained blacks, where the stain hasn’t penetrated too the middle of the black strand, leaving a strange impression of grey/white/grey (see Mr. Hounds vn, just to the left of the button)

Beer

Both Mittenwald and Markneukirchen Beer has been brewed according to the “Reinheitsgebot” (purity requirement) for hundreds of years. This means that the only allowed ingredients are water, barley, hops and yeast (I think). In Markneukirchen it is served in half litre glasses, whereas the Mittenwalder like to serve it in one litre glasses (Maß). The British beer, by contrast, is murky, non transparent, warm, served in pints and tends to have a residual diluted washing-up liquid type flavour.

Thanks for your analysis . I paid attention .  Overall , on the different beer. I prefer the one litre glasses. ;) 

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On 3/27/2012 at 5:16 PM, jacobsaunders said:

A brief and necessarily incomplete blueprint for distinguishing between Mittenwald „Verleger“ and Markn/Schönbach „Dutzendware“

Scroll/peg box

Viewed from the profile, Mwald Scrolls tend to have a pronounced “back of the head” (Hinterkopf) also a prominent “forehead” with sharpish champers, whereas the Dutzendarbeit tend to me more rounded off and over in both respects. The fluting in Mittenwald goes all the way into the throat, whereas the Dutzendarbeit finishes as early as 6 o’clock. On the back of the peg box, the Mwald centre spine normally remains sharp right to the end (and is often prominent vis a vis each side) whereas the Dutzendarbeit tends to finish less sharp, or have a kind of “delta” at the bottom.

Rib construction

In Mittenwald they used an inside mould, the Markn/Schönbach Dutzendarbeit, no mould (until later years). This results in the Mittenwald ones having the join at the end of the ribs to the C bout side, the rib ends finishing cut fairly square. The Dutzendarbeit system involved making the ribs much longer first, so that they could be cramped and glued together and then rasped off afterwards. This leaves the joint either in the centre, or indistinguishable. The ends of their ribs were then often chamfered off at an angle, so that the rib ends don’t look so thick. The Dutzendarbeit ribs often end at the furthest protrusion of the back/belly corners, whereas the Mittenwald ones stop a couple of mm before the end of the back/belly corners. Mittenwald corner blocks cover about twice as much upper/lower rib as c bout rib and the invariably pine linings of the c bout are let into the corner blocks with a point. The Dutzendarbeit method didn’t necessarily require corner blocks and therefore often didn’t have any, where they do, they mostly have, seen from the plan view a more equilateral triangle aspect. Linings are not let in to these “corner blocks”. The bottom rib of a Mittenwald Verleger violin is with occasional exceptions in one piece (or was) and normally has a notch or notches (top and bottom) to mark the middle. Dutzendarbeit with a one piece bottom rib, is so unusual as to provoke suspicion. A let in Bottom saddle can be found both in Mwald and Mkirchen, as can a non let in one, so it isn’t a reliable identification criterion at all.

Back/Belly

The Dutzendarbeit bellies were roughed out with integral bass bar, until they developed a routing machine which made fitting and gluing a bass bar necessary. This was a remnant of the old Markneukirchen tradition and was neither quicker, easier or a short cut (as I discovered trying to do one). The Mwald Backs/Bellies are, although smother, no more carefully worked out, often being either too thick or ridiculously thin. They have glued in Bass bars. Mittenwald purfeling is normally fitted far too deep, encouraging edges to break off. They tend to have “bee stings” which is less characteristic of the Dutzendarbeit. The black strand of the purfeling in Mwald seems to be stained right through equally, whereas Dutzendarbeit often has stained blacks, where the stain hasn’t penetrated too the middle of the black strand, leaving a strange impression of grey/white/grey (see Mr. Hounds vn, just to the left of the button)

Beer

Both Mittenwald and Markneukirchen Beer has been brewed according to the “Reinheitsgebot” (purity requirement) for hundreds of years. This means that the only allowed ingredients are water, barley, hops and yeast (I think). In Markneukirchen it is served in half litre glasses, whereas the Mittenwalder like to serve it in one litre glasses (Maß). The British beer, by contrast, is murky, non transparent, warm, served in pints and tends to have a residual diluted washing-up liquid type flavour.

Your analysis with this differents criterions of identification as a geographical area is valuable for wich periode approximatively? 

Date to date? Please , thank you. 

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Hey, Jeffrey!!  I remember what you told Dracula Chow Mein in the Juzek thread way back when, but, if I really, really thought they'd earned it, could I call somebody a "clueless blogger"?   Pullleaze??  :ph34r::):lol:

By the way, could you please pin and lock this classic reference thread to protect it?

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  • 2 years later...
26 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Is you post a statement or a question, or something else?

for documentation, because some websites updating their sites, or removing some posts , so i'm trying to save them for the Maestronet members, for educational purpose
 

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1 hour ago, mood2000 said:

for documentation, because some websites updating their sites, or removing some posts , so i'm trying to save them for the Maestronet members, for educational purpose
 

In that case, I would start a new thread with those photos (if you have permission to use them) and clearly state what they are about.

Adding them to an old thread without a reason would make them too hard to find.

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12 minutes ago, Rue said:

Adding them to an old thread without a reason would make them too hard to find.

that's right, because i'm starting my research and some links are not working or deleted already , that's way i'm adding them a little bit late .



 

 

16 minutes ago, Rue said:

In that case, I would start a new thread with those photos (if you have permission to use them) and clearly state what they are about.

 

i have to mention the link of the source as scientific integrity :

http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=330703090882&t=1331945090000&seller=pahdah_hound&excSoj=1&excTrk=1&lsite=0&ittenable=false&domain=ebay.at&descgauge=1&cspheader=1&oneClk=2&secureDesc=0&oversion=9a327389

 

anyway, thanks for your post.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, mood2000 said:

Ok, so tell us if Pandah's violin is from Mittenwald or from Vogtland, so I know if this thread was a waste of my time or not

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13 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Ok, so tell us if Pandah's violin is from Mittenwald or from Vogtland, so I know if this thread was a waste of my time or not

of course not wasting your time , i learned alot from your experience such as "cornerblockology", also i learned about the methods of violin making (in mold , out mold ,or No mold "back to back"), so i appreciate your knowledge.

so i believe this is a "Vogtländisch violin" 

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