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fiddlewallop

Plate tuning

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Oded,

If the goal is to reproduce what people perceive as the archetypal "Strad" sound, why necessarily exclude regraduated Strads?

Your statement would be true if all regraduated Strads sounded great-that's not very clear. OTOH if you think that all Strads sound great then clearly the graduation which have a tremendous range of graduations don't matter anyway.

My objective would be to try to find Strad's intent in studying his graduations.

Oded

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I didn't say to include all regraduated Strads, but rather not to exclude them just for having been regraduated.

Of course, if your goal is to understand Stradivari's intent (which is a fine goal), excluding regraduated Strads indeed makes sense but excluding the duds does not.

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Well, if you're going to average all of Strad's graduations whether they are original, good, bad or indifferent then why not average all violins in existence-obviously absurd- but isn't it the same logic?

Oded

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Well, if you're going to average all of Strad's graduations whether they are original, good, bad or indifferent then why not average all violins in existence-obviously absurd- but isn't it the same logic?

It seems to me you can't get a full picture of Stradivari's intent unless you also look at the duds, because for better or worse those are the graduations he chose for those particular instruments.

I'm not saying it makes sense to average out a bunch of values that don't belong together, but rather that it makes no sense to exclude those instruments that do belong together. Which particular sets of values belong together of course depends on what you're trying to find out.

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It seems to me you can't get a full picture of Stradivari's intent unless you also look at the duds, because for better or worse those are the graduations he chose for those particular instruments.

You are therefore implying that Antonio intended to make bad sounding violins!

Oded

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chronos, i dont think you understand what regraduation means, it means not by strad but done later by someone else, how can regraduated measurements possibly have to do with strads intent, as opposed to the intent of the regraduater, and what possible benefit does their inclusion in a study of strads work do??

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You are therefore implying that Antonio intended to make bad sounding violins!

Not at all. If your goal is to study Stradivari's approach to graduation, then you'll want to look at all intact examples of his work, including those that didn't turn out so well. If your goal is to find a common graduation pattern between the best Strads, you'll instead want to look at all the best examples, including those with altered graduations.

Your particular goal may be different from either of the above, which is also fine.

Whatever the question may be, I think it is better answered by looking at the original data instead of just the averages. I suspect that Anders is not at liberty to publish the data in question, however, so many of us will have no choice but to wait for someone to publish a book on Strad like the Biddulph book on Del Gesu.

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which do you think would be more useful, an average of 69 Strads or highly detailed information about one, very good Strad including wood density, arching details, tap tones, modal analysis etc?

Personally I would prefer the second.

I can't see that an average of everything means very much. Perhaps a mean of the graduations, with the extremes, regraduated and otherwise dubious examples eliminated, might be more useful

Oded

We do not agree there Oded. One of the problems when you have data from a certain violin is that you do not know the details of the wood quality. Nor do we usually know anything about the pairing of the plates both regarding wood properties, plate weights and the plate tones.

I have a quite idiosynchratic way of tuning plates and mathing them. To me it is more useful to work with the ballpark numbers and have a certain degree of possiblility to vary to make things work out, than copying the graduations of a certain instrument.

Keep in mind that many of the instruments also have added graduations from patches. So your concern about regraduated instruments may be biasing your knowledge. I think I read that you usually build thicker yourself, and that the regraduation idea is the rationale for doing so. Many makers think like that, I think. And there may perfectly well not be a firm ground under that assumption.

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Your statement would be true if all regraduated Strads sounded great-that's not very clear. OTOH if you think that all Strads sound great then clearly the graduation which have a tremendous range of graduations don't matter anyway.

Only an idiot would regraduate an instrument that sounded good or great, so if any are regraduated those that are, are likely to be the ones that did not sound great.

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Well, if you're going to average all of Strad's graduations whether they are original, good, bad or indifferent then why not average all violins in existence-obviously absurd- but isn't it the same logic?

Not really, but for presentation purposes that can be interesting to do as well. E.g. if one wants an overwiev of what violins graduations are in relation to, say, Hardanger fiddle graduations.

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Whatever the question may be, I think it is better answered by looking at the original data instead of just the averages. I suspect that Anders is not at liberty to publish the data in question, however, so many of us will have no choice but to wait for someone to publish a book on Strad like the Biddulph book on Del Gesu.

The original data comes from books, Strad posters, some privately shared data etc. And they can not be shared in detail of obvious reasons. Sharing statistical data is one way to share information because it does not reveal any sources, nor details traceable back to the sources, which instrument etc.

These plots were made out of curiosity and for presentation purposes. Beyond that they have become guidelines in the graduation process. I have such graduation plots for certain Hardanger fiddle makers as well, which interest me more than the cremonese makers, to be honest.

Strads intent may not be too interesting because what has turned out to be the best and greatest sounding instruments has been revelaed through the soloist career history long after his death. He might never have known which of his violins were the greatest. It was e.g. probaly not those he put most workmanhip into, the nicely inlaid instruments e.g.

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couldnt agree more anders......

Don't try to be smart lyndon. You have changed the content of my original post. I know you are "outside of the normal range" when it comes to knowing what is correct to say and do.

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We do not agree there Oded. One of the problems when you have data from a certain violin is that you do not know the details of the wood quality. Nor do we usualyy know anything about the pairing of the plates both regarding wood properties, plate weights and the plate tones.

my premise is that it's more useful to know a lot about a few well selected violins than a little (ie gradautions) about a lot of randomly selected violins. Information about density, therefore approximate plate weights, modal analysis etc can now be obtained though cat scans and other technologies

I have a quite idiosynchratic way of tuning plates and mathing them. To me it is more useful to work with the ballpark numbers and have a certain degree of possiblility to vary to make things work out, than copying the graduations of a certain instrument.

that may be the case but publishing this information implies that it is widely applicable

Keep in mind that many of the instrumnets also have added graduations from patches. So your concern about regraduated instruments may be biasing your knowledge. I think I read that you usually build thicker yourself, and that the regraduation idea is the rationale for doing so. Many makers think like that, I think. And may perfectly well not have a firm ground under that assumption.

the vast majority of regraduated instruments are overly thinned. I do start with a slightly overbuilt instrument but with the intention of finishing the instrument from the exterior, both visually and acoustically. regraduation has not had any influence in my thinking about graduation numbers. I think it's a false assumption that only bad sounding Strads were regraduated. A badly set up instrument may sound bad or a wealthy owner who was a bad player may have convinced a luthier to regraduate. I was not considered such a bad thing to do in the past.

Oded

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And I think that Fiddlewallop would like his original question answered. How do you tune a plate? This thread has quickly turned into a debate about the virtues of plate tuning where all of the experts get to blow their horns. Pals, Vic.

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Someone in another thread was adamant that regraduation is mostly a myth that most master instruments have not been regraduated. Was it Darnton maybe? I don't remember who now or what thread but I do remember reading that.

Also I'll borrow this image from David Beard. Is it just my bad eyesight or is there in these composite tops of DG and Strad an asymmetry that is common to both? If they were both perfectly symmetrical as you might expect from multiple random images merged then I wouldn't think anything of it. It's subtle, maybe just coincidence.

post-31367-0-22967600-1329742710_thumb.jpg

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I would still like the following question addressed. Can a flat plate and an arched plate be tuned to the same (including M5) frequency (or frequencies)?

Oded

Hi Oded,

I'm guessing a flat plate can be tuned to the same mode frequencies as an arched one but it will be considerably thicker.

Marty

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I would still like the following question addressed. Can a flat plate and an arched plate be tuned to the same (including M5) frequency (or frequencies)?

Oded

I guess it will if there is a given dimension aspect ratio of the long to the short side of the plate. So the answer is yes, but the in plane component of the vibrating energy will push the mode frequency up about an octave. The flat plate will then have to pretty thick in order to match the tap tone of the curved plate.

Reference literature on flat plate orthotropic plate theory. See fig 3 in this article

If you want more modes than just one to be tuned to the same frequencies for the flat plate in comparison to a curved one one needs to use a special graduation scheme and possibly the arching shapes of the curved plate needs to me tweaked. The latter problem was adressed in some of Mats Tinnstens optimization work using FEA. The effect the arching has on the mode frequencies was adressed in a JASA article by Robert Schumacher using finite element analysis of a simple cylindrical shell.

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Someone in another thread was adamant that regraduation is mostly a myth that most master instruments have not been regraduated. Was it Darnton maybe? I don't remember who now or what thread but I do remember reading that.

Also I'll borrow this image from David Beard. Is it just my bad eyesight or is there in these composite tops of DG and Strad an asymmetry that is common to both? If they were both perfectly symmetrical as you might expect from multiple random images merged then I wouldn't think anything of it. It's subtle, maybe just coincidence.

I think we might expect the bassbar side of the plates to be slightly thinner than the SP side, possibly due to work done in relation to the cleaning up of old glue etc in preparation for the insertion of new bars.

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