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John Juzek Violin


GoldenPlate

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For the record I would like to clarify that beyond the usual Jesse hyperbole we know and love, I don't take issue with the listing.

I'm quite sure the violin is a "John Juzek". By that I understand it to be a very ordinary Schoenbach violin probably made under the aegis of someone called Juzek and labeled in the US.

I happen not to believe that these violins are worth anything like the money they fetch ... they have an appeal to American buyers which is beyond my comprehension. But this has nothing to do with Ebay - Jesse manages to get very high prices for his instruments, sometimes I'm a bit resentful because I can't come close, but I wouldn't lambast him for being 10 years out on this violin.

I accept that the various "repairs" are fake, like the fake cracks on cheap Meinel & Herold violins - one more reason to dislike these violins in my book!

I think we should dissociate the question of John Juzek violins from the Ebay question or the Pahdah Hound question!

What interests me is John Juzek and the larger issue of trade names. I would just like a lot more information to be available - Roland Terrier's work on Mirecourt trade names is ground-breaking, myth-busting, and available to everyone. It's backed up by scholarship and huge experience. In spite of this most people refuse to accept his conclusions, but if it was more widely disseminated then in time some of these imaginary makers would find their way back to the bottom of the pile where they belong. I would love it if I could access similar information on German, Bohemian and Italian trade names.

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I think we should dissociate the question of John Juzek violins from the Ebay question or the Pahdah Hound question!

Yes please!

I do have fun on the Auction Scroll lampooning the occasional ridiculously uniformed or fraudulent listing, but there is a lot more to be learned from auction listings. This topic is an excellent example.

And for the record, my somewhat negative comment about the "mint" appellation is in reference to antiques in general. You all know my ignorance concerning old violins.

My second comment is a general FYI, hopefully useful to sellers, buyers, etc.

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i think we have a fairly valid question of is this a genuine juzek with a 20s label, or just a schoenbach fiddle with much later fake juzek label added, in which case it is all about mr hound and not juzek,

mr swan, living in england and having virtually no exposure to juzeks, i dont see how you can make an appraisal that its genuine, perhaps if you are so convinced of the integrity of the seller you should follow the bidding history on his sales, he seems to have an uncanny knack for getting very low feedback bidders to keep bidding over and over, quite early in the auction, driving the price up and up til, no bam, at the very end of the auction, the price hardly goes up at all like it does for legitimate sellers, perhaps its just the elusive mystique of mr hound

for instance heres a bidder i sware i recognize from other pahdah auctions who only bids on pahdah violins!!

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=330671034545&aid=n***0&eu=j94fMnrn5l6y4JyUi4d0LDCuCwMVzFKJ&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

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i think we have a fairly valid question of is this a genuine juzek with a 20s label, or just a schoenbach fiddle with much later fake juzek label added, in which case it is all about mr hound and not juzek,

mr swan, living in england and having virtually no exposure to juzeks, i dont see how you can make an appraisal that its genuine, perhaps if you are so convinced of the integrity of the seller you should follow the bidding history on his sales, he seems to have an uncanny knack for getting very low feedback bidders to keep bidding over and over, quite early in the auction, driving the price up and up til, no bam, at the very end of the auction, the price hardly goes up at all like it does for legitimate sellers, perhaps its just the elusive mystique of mr hound

for instance heres a bidder i sware i recognize from other pahdah auctions who only bids on pahdah violins!!

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=330671034545&aid=n***0&eu=j94fMnrn5l6y4JyUi4d0LDCuCwMVzFKJ&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

Hello Youngsters, After reading this long post I know for sure now that I am an old timer. Back in the days, if you even mentioned a German violin at Moennigs, you were almost thrown out of the shop. And if you wanted to buy a composite violin of any kind, they felt you were insulting their reputation as they used them only to loan out if you brought a violin in for repair. How do I know? Well, lets just say I was very young, knew very little, and found out the hard way. However, for a number of years before they closed they were "converted", and had to lower their standards. So to now read so much about so little; common German factory violins with high prices that always come up short in sound quality, is really quite amusing, as it certainly shows how times have changed. OT

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i think we have a fairly valid question of is this a genuine juzek with a 20s label, or just a schoenbach fiddle with much later fake juzek label added, in which case it is all about mr hound and not juzek,

mr swan, living in england and having virtually no exposure to juzeks, i dont see how you can make an appraisal that its genuine, perhaps if you are so convinced of the integrity of the seller you should follow the bidding history on his sales, he seems to have an uncanny knack for getting very low feedback bidders to keep bidding over and over, quite early in the auction, driving the price up and up til, no bam, at the very end of the auction, the price hardly goes up at all like it does for legitimate sellers, perhaps its just the elusive mystique of mr hound

for instance heres a bidder i sware i recognize from other pahdah auctions who only bids on pahdah violins!!

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=330671034545&aid=n***0&eu=j94fMnrn5l6y4JyUi4d0LDCuCwMVzFKJ&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

So, Lyndon, you accuse me, in this thread alone, of fake labels, inaccurate attributions, and now shill bidding. I have yet to see any solid evidence for any of your assertions. The bidder you refer to is user name dennyg and lives 3000 miles away from me, and is trying to buy a good American violin and has been for years. He probably never will buy anything. He has never retracted a bid on any of my auctions and has never won one. He has had violins sent to him on approval from several Boston dealers and has never kept one. This has been going on for years. All the dealers know who he is. He is not a friend of mine and I have never met him. I have emailed him in response to questions and offered him violins that he has passed. He has also expressed regret at not buying certain violins he bid too low to win.

The violin that is the subject of this thread is a John Juzek Master Art, plain and simple. It has an authentic Juzek Master Art label. It was won by a man in Beijing who has bought a few other violins from me on eBay. There were plenty of legit bidders for this violin. If I were to use shills it would certainly be to achieve a higher price than I realized for this violin which is low wholesale at best. Heck, they bring this much or more at major auctions.

Lyndon, you wrote and I quote,"how do you like them apples pahdah, hes obviously making a rather false statement about the authenticity of the label, which draws the whole instrument into question, is it even a juzek?" I will repeat for your benefit, Lyndon and others who had trouble understanding my description, that the violin was not made in 1894, that I never claimed it was, and that I represented it as a 20th century violin in two separate references in the listing. Predating labels was a common Juzek practice. And Lyndon, you also wrote, and I quote "even though the paper looks brand new, the ink on the handwritten date isnt faded at all, it appears to be done with a felt pen invented in 1919??? plus it comes from the hound where these characteristics pop up all the time......." The label is authentic, the paper old, the ink faded and these questionable "characteristics" only seem to "pop up all the time" on your outdated and obsolete CRT monitor that you insist is just fine. You also state and I quote "other than yourself, brad and pahdah, i havent seen any experts here say they thought the label is real" Who, other than yourself, claims the label is fake?

You play fast and shoot from the hip accusing people of fraud all the time without any evidence. That is not just impolite and uncivil, but reflects poorly on you and your moral compass. Next time you feel the need to attack someone, try to put together a rational case that includes facts and evidence-not just wild and unfounded speculation. It is getting old and people are laughing at you.

Jesse

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well i guess some laughing at me, some laughing with me, seriously, if youve read the other posters, im not the only one criticising your listing pahdah, as i talked about with one of our experts, over 100yrs say 80% of handwritten ink labels are going to fade noticeably, only 20% are going to stay dark, on your violins it seems like this % is backwards, 20%faded 80% staying dark.

whatever, i dont like how you do business, and i think you do a disservice to others of us trying to run a legitimate, honest business on ebay.

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So, Lyndon, you accuse me, in this thread alone, of fake labels, inaccurate attributions, and now shill bidding. I have yet to see any solid evidence for any of your assertions. The bidder you refer to is user name dennyg and lives 3000 miles away from me, and is trying to buy a good American violin and has been for years. He probably never will buy anything. He has never retracted a bid on any of my auctions and has never won one. He has had violins sent to him on approval from several Boston dealers and has never kept one. This has been going on for years. All the dealers know who he is. He is not a friend of mine and I have never met him. I have emailed him in response to questions and offered him violins that he has passed. He has also expressed regret at not buying certain violins he bid too low to win.

The violin that is the subject of this thread is a John Juzek Master Art, plain and simple. It has an authentic Juzek Master Art label. It was won by a man in Beijing who has bought a few other violins from me on eBay. There were plenty of legit bidders for this violin. If I were to use shills it would certainly be to achieve a higher price than I realized for this violin which is low wholesale at best. Heck, they bring this much or more at major auctions.

Lyndon, you wrote and I quote,"how do you like them apples pahdah, hes obviously making a rather false statement about the authenticity of the label, which draws the whole instrument into question, is it even a juzek?" I will repeat for your benefit, Lyndon and others who had trouble understanding my description, that the violin was not made in 1894, that I never claimed it was, and that I represented it as a 20th century violin in two separate references in the listing. Predating labels was a common Juzek practice. And Lyndon, you also wrote, and I quote "even though the paper looks brand new, the ink on the handwritten date isnt faded at all, it appears to be done with a felt pen invented in 1919??? plus it comes from the hound where these characteristics pop up all the time......." The label is authentic, the paper old, the ink faded and these questionable "characteristics" only seem to "pop up all the time" on your outdated and obsolete CRT monitor that you insist is just fine. You also state and I quote "other than yourself, brad and pahdah, i havent seen any experts here say they thought the label is real" Who, other than yourself, claims the label is fake?

You play fast and shoot from the hip accusing people of fraud all the time without any evidence. That is not just impolite and uncivil, but reflects poorly on you and your moral compass. Next time you feel the need to attack someone, try to put together a rational case that includes facts and evidence-not just wild and unfounded speculation. It is getting old and people are laughing at you.

Jesse

In Defense of Jesse; I've been around ebay for a long time and with out a doubt, PH is one of the very best sellers on ebay. I do not know him and have never bought a violin from him, as my buying days are over. Yes, I do laugh many times of his colorful description of tone, but give the man credit, this is ebay and buyers love to read wonderful things about the violin they are about to purchase. I'm sure it has been said here many times before, but just the fact that Jesse will give you a return if you do not like the violin for any reason is the best anyone can ask for when buying a violin on ebay. He must spend a lot of time just packing and shipping in the hopes of selling a modestly priced violin. If I were selling a violin on ebay today I would never let a violin out for "trial". I know of to many violin teachers and others who use this method(from dealers as well) to sell to their students at double the price they paid. Jesse certainly loves fiddles and I find no reason he would ever need to deceive anyone in selling a violin. Keep up the good work, Jesse! OT

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I will repeat for your benefit, Lyndon and others who had trouble understanding my description, that the violin was not made in 1894, that I never claimed it was, and that I represented it as a 20th century violin in two separate references in the listing. Predating labels was a common Juzek practice.

Jesse

now i am accusing you of being a liar, in your ad text you mention the violin being "older than 100years" (ie well before czechoslovakia existed)and your one, not two 20th century references are to juzek master art violins in general, not this particular violin

so if you were so aware this violin couldnt date before the 20s why didnt you say so.......also just noticed this your label has a blank space for the no., blank no number, is that common on juzek labels

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OK. The noise is getting deafening. Everyone, may I ask you to please read this again?

Auction scroll rules

Discussing a listing is fine... let's discuss, eh?

As I'm an appraiser, and thus tend to obsess on the words used to describe relative condition, a concern raised here I will comment on is the use of the word "mint".

Webster says (in case anyone cares): unmarred as if fresh from a mint <in mint condition>

It's not uncommon to see the word used to describe the condition of an instrument, though I personally disagree with it's use 99% of the time.

Something that has been in the field (so to say), or seen use, does not qualify as "mint" in my opinion. I have had a few bows that were never used, had original grips and hair, and in one case, was found still wrapped in the paper it was sold with. I used "mint" to describe these items. I also used it to describe an Italian instrument bought off the wire in the shop from the son of the maker, and immediately stored away for several decades.

Otherwise, I stick with general condition description comments like poor, fair, good, very good, excellent and superb when creating a document or writing a description.

I'm sure my disagreement with it's use isn't going to stop the term from showing up in ad copy, however... and Jesse certainly isn't the only, or the first, seller to use it.

Cheers!

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i think we have a fairly valid question of is this a genuine juzek with a 20s label, or just a schoenbach fiddle with much later fake juzek label added,

I can't believe there's any valid question about that at all. I'd bet serious money that it's a real label. Whether it was filled up ca. 90 years ago, that's a valid question by the look of it, but the label itself is almost certainly real.

For one thing, you can see that it was printed letterpress not offset, and clamshell presses are quite hard to find these days because they were slow and they tended to use up a lot of fingers.

The idea that anyone would go through the trouble and expense of having clichés made and fake 2-color labels printed on an antique clamshell press to convince buyers in the $2-5K range that they're getting a Juzek...nah, that's just not credible.

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I can't believe there's any valid question about that at all. I'd bet serious money that it's a real label. Whether it was filled up ca. 90 years ago, that's a valid question by the look of it, but the label itself is almost certainly real.

For one thing, you can see that it was printed letterpress not offset, and clamshell presses are quite hard to find these days because they were slow and they tended to use up a lot of fingers.

The idea that anyone would go through the trouble and expense of having clichés made and fake 2-color labels printed on an antique clamshell press to convince buyers in the $2-5K range that they're getting a Juzek...nah, that's just not credible.

I entirely get your point, however:

I am often confronted with instruments with labels from makers like Thumhard or Meinrad Frank (and many, many more), where people are incredulous when I say, “no it isn’t, it’s a run of the mill Schönbach box”. The response is invariably “Who the hell would fake a Thumhard (resp. other)”. Well they don’t, but such names are often to be found in instruments that bear not the slightest resemblance to the real thing. I myself, for instance, have a great wad of ca. 80 year old (genuine) “Handarbeit aus Mittenwald” labels in my stamp album, which were given to me by the Widow of a late colleague. I presume that somewhere in America there is a corresponding “Stamp Album” draw or box, with a similar supply of blank Jusek labels, just as I could have last week, should I have wanted too, walked off with several hundreds of blank “Machold” certificates.

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heres a presumably genuine juzek label, in what looks like a horrible revarnish hack job going for 1600usd, while it has in a common pre 1919 date of 1910, the paper looks dirty and old, the handwritten ink is faded, compared to pahdahs, the the handwritten ink is clearly done with a fountain pen, not a felt tip, if you look closely at the handwritten part youll see some parts are wide and some are very narrow depending on the angle of the fountain pen, also this label where it say no; has a number filled in not a blank like on pahdahs label

http://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Juzek-Master-Art-1906-copie-Gagliano-/320833642546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab32ce032#ht_720wt_932

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The only other fiddles I've seen with the shield on the back are by "Andreas Morelli," which, correct me if I'm wrong, was a German trade shop in the early 1900's.

Yes. I noted this earlier on in the thread and wondered out loud if the Morellis might have originated the same workshop(s) as the instrument that is the subject of this thread... though it is certainly possible that this device may just have just been coveted at the time (one firm copied it's use from the other).

If I recall correctly, the "Morelli" instruments were imported to be sold in the US by Herrmann and began appearing in catalogs in the '20s... but I'm relying on distant memory. If I'm incorrect, someone please feel free to correct me/clarify.

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Yes. I noted this earlier on in the thread and wondered out loud if the Morellis might have originated the same workshop(s) as the instrument that is the subject of this thread... though it is certainly possible that this device may just have just been coveted at the time (one firm copied it's use from the other).

If I recall correctly, the "Morelli" instruments were imported to be sold in the US by Herrmann and began appearing in catalogs in the '20s... but I'm relying on distant memory. If I'm incorrect, someone please feel free to correct me/clarify.

Here is another Herrmann with that shield:

http://tarisio.com/pages/photos/auct_inst.php?csid=2197618688&cpid=2656862208&vw=back

But I´ve never seen a Herrmann fiddle with thie ornamentation in Europe.

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well if there was nothing suspicious about the label, we might be saying hermann manufactured violins for juzek, but still a distinct possibility; an andreas morelli worth about 1000usd lost its label and acquired the label of a much more valued, at least in the usa, juzek master art, could have happened yesterday or thirty years ago, but to say on this evidence it couldnt have happened at all is illogical IMO

i have today done a detailed study of juzeks on the web, and this violin in question looks a lot more like the hermann on tarisio, than other master arts i saw

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I think the Tarisio fiddle proves my point, which is that the Juzek label is an irrelevance (real or fake). Juzek, Morelli and Herrmann are names slapped in Bohemian (Schoenbach) fiddles after the fact ....

Whether a Janos Juzek made violins or not (I'm sure he did) is also beside the point - I'm quite sure he didn't make any of these.

The "master art violin" designation/label will have been used by metropolitan Music Co. for fiddles which sounded a bit better than others and could be sold at a greater profit.

Interesting that the Herrmann has the same bushings, ebony crown and graft (probably un-necessary) as the Juzek.

Lovely thread, things are hotting up!

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(This lot seems to have been withdrawn, shortly after I made this post. I don't suppose they read Maestronet, do they?)

+++++++++++++++++++++

" No one trust the label anyway" a saleswoman once told me jokingly. I answered her that I could not afford

a genuine label violin neither. We understood each other.

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To add to the mix and maybe shed some light. I've been trying to educate myself on these Master Art Juzeks and the one distinctive feature i've seen on what I would consider a "real" Master Art is....the scroll has a deep channel (very unlike Roths, etc) and the edging on the violin body front and back, is distinctly fatter than Roths etc. Here are a couple of photos I copied from the web a while back:

post-6650-0-99905200-1327186455_thumb.jpg post-6650-0-52295100-1327186475_thumb.jpg

post-6650-0-44526000-1327187180_thumb.jpg

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