Baroque taptones referenced to 440Hz

[Bill Yacey]

Rather than kill the perfectly good thread "How Good Is Our Theory" discussing supposed Cremonese tap tone methods, we can continue here.

I find the notion of Strad tuning his plates to whole tones based on A440 highly unlikely. My opinion is based upon the non standardized concert pitches used throughout the baroque era to modern times, circa 1939 when A440 Hz was finally settled upon.

Why would Strad have used A440 reference for tap tuning his plates? Concert pitch in his day may have been A415, which is Ab in our times. Further, why would he choose to reference his tuning to what would have been A# in his day? In fact, we don't know with any certainty that 415Hz was even a common standard used in his time. Historical research indicates pitch references varied anywhere from A380Hz up to as high as A480Hz.

If he did indeed tune his plates based upon a reference tone of 415Hz, we are beating the instruments up today by continual dissonance through tuning a semitone higher. Could this have been his intention?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I concede there is a possibility that Strad may have used some sort of interval tuning, but likely not to any known standard today. Resonances don't care about specific frequencies, but rather are governed by harmonic relationships.

To assume Strad tuned and intended his instruments to be used based around A440, and furthermore, thinking his instruments will not work as well tuned down to some other arbitrary standard is naive thinking.

While typing this I thought numerous times "Why bother?" just scrap this thread, but I'm curious to see what insight others may have regarding this.

[Jacob]

Rather than kill the perfectly good thread "How Good Is Our Theory" discussing supposed Cremonese tap tone methods, we can continue here.

I find the notion of Strad tuning his plates to whole tones based on A440 highly unlikely. My opinion is based upon the non standardized concert pitches used throughout the baroque era to modern times, circa 1939 when A440 Hz was finally settled upon.

Why would Strad have used A440 reference for tap tuning his plates? Concert pitch in his day may have been A415, which is Ab in our times. Further, why would he choose to reference his tuning to what would have been A# in his day? In fact, we don't know with any certainty that 415Hz was even a common standard used in his time. Historical research indicates pitch references varied anywhere from A380Hz up to as high as A480Hz.

If he did indeed tune his plates based upon a reference tone of 415Hz, we are beating the instruments up today by continual dissonance through tuning a semitone higher. Could this have been his intention?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I concede there is a possibility that Strad may have used some sort of interval tuning, but likely not to any known standard today. Resonances don't care about specific frequencies, but rather are governed by harmonic relationships.

To assume Strad tuned and intended his instruments to be used based around A440, and furthermore, thinking his instruments will not work as well tuned down to some other arbitrary standard is naive thinking.

While typing this I thought numerous times "Why bother?" just scrap this thread, but I'm curious to see what insight others may have regarding this.

These are the same questions I've been afraid to ask over the past decade or so....

[koshpendi]

As a dedicated reader and lurker on this forum, I can't even venture an answer.

I do however appreciate the question. Thanks for asking it Bill!

[NewNewbie]

If he did indeed tune his plates based upon a reference tone of 415Hz, we are beating the instruments up today by continual dissonance through tuning a semitone higher. Could this have been his intention?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I concede there is a possibility that Strad may have used some sort of interval tuning, but likely not to any known standard today. Resonances don't care about specific frequencies, but rather are governed by harmonic relationships.

To assume Strad tuned and intended his instruments to be used based around A440, and furthermore, thinking his instruments will not work as well tuned down to some other arbitrary standard is naive thinking.

While typing this I thought numerous times "Why bother?" just scrap this thread, but I'm curious to see what insight others may have regarding this.

TUNING

My guess is that more than any other maker in his day, Stradivari's instruments traveled the furthest abroad.

So how many different 'reference tones' did they run across.

If he had a standard reference tone that he tuned to, then we might see a select pattern of distribution, but as far as I can tell, the pattern is fairly uniformly spread. Nor do we see writers commenting how certain makers instruments sound poor in certain regions.

Regarding instruments with 'some sort of interval tuning', if it is so, this would seem to be inconsequential since it would have to have no bearing on the instrument as a whole, if that instrument is universally accepted, and strung up with a multitude of different strings. I see this as more a matter of local taste, and availability of certain strings.

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THE SUM OF THE WHOLE IS GREATER THAN THE SUM OF THE PARTS

I wonder also how many times Stradivari instruments have ended up on a restorers bench, and in how many parts?

Or at the bottom of a sea, or near some fire hazard.

Would not the 'boundary conditions' of an 'assembled instrument' have changed during all of these various ordeals, and even any 'Universal' tuning scheme such as Oded's String Reciprocity which deals with the instrument as a whole, have changed too.

The real credit Stradivari should be acclaimed for, is getting his instruments so widely accepted in his day, and into the hands of the people who were best able to afford these instruments.

The real acclaim for Stradivari after the instrument has been disassembled is, in my most humblest of opinions, due to the restorers who handled these instruments, along with a debt of graditude to those Patrons who paid for the 'care'.

When people say that not all Stradivari instruments are great, I think of the ever tightening restraints placed on modern restorers, and how they are being, in some ways, more and more limited in what they can do, and how not all restorers are created equal.

From a conservation point of view, this is a good thing, but if all an instrument needs to sound great again is for the right person to overstep the bounds of 'good conservation' then we are right back to attributing all that we hear to one man named Stradivari.

So if you hear a great Stradivari instrument, and then find out that it has been re-graduated, or a poor Stradivari that has not been re-graduated, then which is preferred?

Or a Stradivari with the top plate made in the 1730, and a back plate made in 1685?

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CONSERVATION IS A MODERN GOAL

I am in no way trying to argue against, nor support the work on instruments outside of modern day acceptable practices, just pointing out that this was not always the case, and that it is possible that some instruments have benefited from falling into the right pair of hands, with the widest of latitudes of options for adjustment.

To me 'Tuning' puts you in the ballpark, as does weighing, and arching schemes, along with density, wood selection, flexing, etc. etc., but the person making the instrument, along with the person(s) servicing the instrument, and ultimately the most important, the player playing/paying the instrument, combine to make each instrument unique, and have a far greater impact on the instrument than any 'initial tuning scheme'.

The problem is that the label just tells us who had an initial hand in making the instrument, and not the whole picture.

[Oded Kishony]

According to Hermann Helmholtz A was pitched at 446Hz in 1845 in Milan.

It would be informative to know what the church organ in Cremona is tuned to. (Bruce?)

As a comparison, standard pitch in Vienna went from 457-442Hz between 1640 and 1878 respectively.

Also wood tends to get lighter and stiffer over time.

NOTHING remains the same!

Oded

[Don Noon]

The standard pitch is only one of the logical flaws to the taptone theory. There are several others related to HOW, and more related to WHY.

HOW

1. It is fairly well known that Cremonese assembled their violins and then varnished them. Are we to assume that they knew the exact effect of varnish on the taptones, and adjusted the in-the-white plate values downward accordingly?

2. As in the OP, did they know what standard pitch we would be using today?

3. As O.K. noted, wood changes properties over time. Did they account for that too when they made their plates?

4. Humidity makes taptones change too.

I do record taptones of everything I make. Very often, I decide to make changes, and take the top off. The taptones are not the same. I even have several cases where I make second (or third) changes, where the varnish was already there, and the taptones when I take the plate off are not the same as from when I put it on.

WHY

1. Free plate tap tones, at best, are only general indicators of assembled instrument vibration frequencies. If you have a free plate taptone of 440 Hz, that mode shape and frequency will cease to exist once it is glued on. Edge conditions matter, bigtime.

2. Even if tuned musical note frequencies DID carry over into the instrument, there is no support, by statistics or acoustic theory, for the idea that being tuned to musical notes is any better than being tuned off of the notes.

A few years ago, I thought it might be useful to try to simulate edge conditions, and tune plates that way. I built a fixture where I could clamp the plate down all around, and even added a neck and soundpost support so I could play and hear it. Didn't work for beans... edge conditions were still not right (rib and back flexiblites matter) and I could not find a single mode or frequency that looked anything like what happened on the instrument.

[Oded Kishony]

Don,

Are you doing modal analysis with GS's program?

OK

[Anders Buen]

2. Even if tuned musical note frequencies DID carry over into the instrument, there is no support, by statistics or acoustic theory, for the idea that being tuned to musical notes is any better than being tuned off of the notes.

I have done some of the same experiments as you Don. I think there is some merit to tuning the B1- frequency to close to open A. I think of a similar idea for Hardanger fiddles where scordatura is the usual. The normal tuning has its open a close to the B1+ frequency.

I guess you would not rate my ideas as 'support', but I think there is more stability in the B1- (and B1+) frequencies I have seen from contemporary violin makers than just by chance. I have shown some data here on the subject a while ago, but then in a mix with Curtins old instrument data.

Musical note frequencies does not carry over to the assembled instrument directly. But they do indirectly. I have shown that using your data Don. I seem to find significant patterns where even the best known scientific oriented makers 'see nothing'.

[Anders Buen]

I think one of the interesting aspects of tap tuning is to relate the stiffnesses of the top and back plates. I do not have access to open great old violins. But some data from e.g. Möckels first edition of his book 'Die Kunst des Geigenbaues' points towards that there may be a correlation between the pitch of the free plates of Strads instruments. There are a very few other data points known so it amounts to about 10ish points.

If we had a 100 it would ahve been great. And it would be possible to get that data from the repair shops if they wanted to share that kind of data. I think some of them do collect such data, possibly by enthusiastic single repairmen. I have no idea.

I think that relating the stiffnesses of the plates in some form may e.g. influence the balance between the B1 modes. It might also possibly reflect some high frequency radiation properties, and the balance between the stiffness the bridge feet 'see'.

I am not saying that tap tuning is the only method to get that information.

Regarding the subject, tap tones can very quite a bit before it affect the assembled violin modes. The relation is about 0.3 Hz per Hz of the free plate mode 5 frequency and about the double for mode 2. The stiffer bassbar of the modernied violins may have rised the tap tones and possibly the assembled violin modes. The added stiffness and mass of the fingerboard and assembly method of the neck may have played a role too. It would ahve been great to see how these modifications do affect the properties of a violin. Also the elongated neck. And the change from a baroque bridge to the modern one.

I think it is quite clear that the old fiddles does not sound the same as they did when they were made.

I wonder how common was the use of scordatura in the music played in and around Cremona around 1700?

[Don Noon]

Are you doing modal analysis with GS's program?

Nope. Modified speaker to drive bridge, sine input. I check mode shapes at low frequency with a small piece of brass on a wire (buzzing area = antinode), higher frequencies I use a close-mike to find what's moving.

I have done some of the same experiments as you Don. I think there is some merit to tuning the B1- frequency to close to open A.

I like that alignment too... my preference is slightly below that, to G#-ish. The actual frequency changes with the weather, bridge height, chinrest mass, etc., and I find no compelling benefit to the resonance being at EXACTLY A-440 or EXACTLY G#-415. Usually mine is around 420 - 430 Hz. Actually, I find some benefit to NOT being at an exact note, which would tend to make that note stick out from the rest more strongly.

[lyndon]

the same problem with the raw wood tap tone thread, everyones saying, except anders that old violins cant be tap tuned with out doing any scientific testing of old instruments to see if they are in fact tuned.

very simply, the tap tuning knowledge continued all through the 1800s where the pitch was close to a 440, and changing the neck and adding a longer bass bar usually included a touch up of the tap tones IMO. secondly even if strad was tuned to a415 thats still in tune with the 12 musical notes of the 440 scale, as 415 is G# in 440. G# is not an out of tune note whereas halfway between G# and A would be

the problem between dissasembled vs assembled tap tones is simply solved by holding the bottom of the dissasembled top against your belly and the top of the plate against your left hand while you tap with your right hand, my experience has been that you get the same tones this way as with the top glued on, and you can work with an already finished, varnished top, whereas when micro tuning like oded on a finished white instrument on the outside, you have to compensate that the varnish will raise the tones a semitone or so. that being said odeds probably right that the final tap tuning of many old violins was done on the outside, however when you add a new bass bar, and the violins varnished, and the pitch has changed, you can only change tones slightly working on the inside

[Bill Yacey]

My thoughts are because wood isn't a uniform, consistent material, specific target tap tones are of little use as a guide. Let's say as an example, wood of a medium density and stiffness was carved and shaped to a finished state and yielded a specific tap tone(s) . It is found also that the instrument is noteworthy in timbre and responsiveness.

Now, take some other wood, perhaps somewhat denser, perhaps a little bit stiffer, and use the same construction parameters, and the same target taptone arrived at with the previous plates.

In all probability, it will be found that the resulting instrument will not measure up to the previous in terms of timbre and response; or on the other hand, it may surpass the first.

So now, with this set of circumstances, how will that specific taptone indicate the outcome of subsequent instruments? I believe there is some merit in somehow analyzing the frequency ratio of harmonic resonances between the top and back plates of an assembled instrument, but I can't offer any suggestion of how to actually extract that information from an assembled instrument due to the interaction of all the components.

I believe people like Don and Anders are on the right road in learning to understand cause and effect of mechanical changes to wood, and how to separate the more important variables from the ones of little consequence, but I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as picking specific target frequencies for the plates and incorporating it into a tuning scheme.

[Bill Yacey]

. G# is not an out of tune note whereas halfway between G# and A would be

you have to compensate that the varnish will raise the tones a semitone or so. that being said odeds probably right that the final tap tuning of many old violins was done on the outside, however when you add a new bass bar, and the violins varnished, and the pitch has changed, you can only change tones slightly working on the inside

G# is considerably out of tune with G natural to my ear. Can a musician utilize vibrato or glissando safely with an instrument tuned in such a way?

How much varnish does it take to arrive at a semitone or so? Can you offer a numerical value of "or so" from the target frequency, if it's so important to maintain the tuning exactly on the intervals of the A440 scale?

[Anders Buen]

I like that alignment too... my preference is slightly below that, to G#-ish. The actual frequency changes with the weather, bridge height, chinrest mass, etc., and I find no compelling benefit to the resonance being at EXACTLY A-440 or EXACTLY G#-415. Usually mine is around 420 - 430 Hz. Actually, I find some benefit to NOT being at an exact note, which would tend to make that note stick out from the rest more strongly.

I understand that in classic music there is not much use of the open strings. But there is in fiddle playing. I like the extra vibrations in addition to the loudness of the fundamental we get playing the open strings, e.g. the open A, when it is close to the B1-.

Exactly may not be so important. But the data I do have from Oberlin tend to indicate that there are not much variation around 445Hz, maybe +/-5 dB or so. Could look it up once and made an anonymous table.

I also tend to get fiddles with the B1- around 430Hz-ish, sometimes lower.

[Don Noon]

I understand that in classic music there is not much use of the open strings. But there is in fiddle playing. I like the extra vibrations in addition to the loudness of the fundamental we get playing the open strings, e.g. the open A, when it is close to the B1-.

And, as a fiddler, my personal preference is to NOT have the B1- too close to the open A. The open string is already a little stronger than a fingered note, so I prefer not to make it moreso by having a resonance there too. Chinrest mass has a fairly significant effect, and I use it to get the resonance below A440.

[lyndon]

G# is considerably out of tune with G natural to my ear. Can a musician utilize vibrato or glissando safely with an instrument tuned in such a way?

How much varnish does it take to arrive at a semitone or so? Can you offer a numerical value of "or so" from the target frequency, if it's so important to maintain the tuning exactly on the intervals of the A440 scale?

i dont know if you know much about music, bill, but there are 12 major key musical scales; G# major has g and g# as its 7th and 8th notes, eb major has g and g# as its 5th and 6th notes, so you see g and g# are hardly out of tune with each other.

[David Burgess]

i dont know if you know much about music, bill, but there are 12 major key musical scales; G# major has g and g# as its 7th and 8th notes, eb major has g and g# as its 5th and 6th notes, so you see g and g# are hardly out of tune with each other.

Lyndon, players today use many different pitch relationship schemes for color and personal identity, and using vibrato throws even more deviation into the mix. Played pitches are all over the place, not just what conforms to a scale structure.

[piaffe]

For what it's worth, Mozart's tuning fork was roughly A = 421.6 Supposedly the first tuning fork, which was invented by John Shore in 1711, was A = 423.5.

Not that this has anything to do with Strad...

[Bill Yacey]

For what it's worth, Mozart's tuning fork was roughly A = 421.6 Supposedly the first tuning fork, which was invented by John Shore in 1711, was A = 423.5.

Not that this has anything to do with Strad...

Actually it does; If Strad was indeed tap tuning his plates so carefully to land on some intervals of a yet to be determined scale,what did he use for a pitch reference?

Did he take his plates to church on Sundays and discreetly crouch behind the pews tapping his plates and checking them against the church organ? I'm not sure how understanding the clergy would have been in those days to such acitvities.

[lyndon]

Actually it does; If Strad was indeed tap tuning his plates so carefully to land on some intervals of a yet to be determined scale,what did he use for a pitch reference?

Did he take his plates to church on Sundays and discreetly crouch behind the pews tapping his plates and checking them against the church organ? I'm not sure how understanding the clergy would have been in those days to such acitvities.

if strad could tune his violins, then obviously he could tune his plates; quite possibly a wealthy man like him had a clavichord or harpsichord to use as a reference or he could use a recorder or flute, guitar or violin tuned by pitch pipe etc, do you think the only tuned instrument in town was the organ???

[Bill Yacey]

if strad could tune his violins, then obviously he could tune his plates; quite possibly a wealthy man like him had a clavichord or harpsichord to use as a reference or he could use a recorder or flute, guitar or violin tuned by pitch pipe etc, do you think the only tuned instrument in town was the organ???

Venturing into the ridiculous, How could Strad know that his pitch pipe was agreeable with whatever pitch standard his customers were using let alone our modern 440 standard reference? There isn't much room for error if his taptones were required to fall exactly on the scale intervals. Any subsequent deviation from his intended reference tone should render his instruments sounding poorly, based on your opinion.

[lyndon]

obviously, bill, you have a very low opinion of baroque musicians being able to tune their instruments, kinda like my opinion of you and your comments!!

[Bill Yacey]

I'm sorry, I missed the hard left turn from Cremonese tap tuning to Baroque musicians tuning their instruments. I believe we were discussing your findings of old Italian violins being tap tuned to very specific intervals of a musical scale, and the idea of any deviations from such tuning spawning negative results.

What I'm simply asking is: What tuning reference was used in those times, and how it is still valid today despite all the changes concert pitch has undergone since that era? Additionally, how is it that the Cremonese instruments still maintain their timbre when the strings are all mistuned off concert pitch by 50 cents? This would be no different than tap tuning between the semitones, which you indicated is to be avoided, yet the violins still sound fine, despite the unsympathetic tuning.

I don't think these are difficult questions to answer by someone who understands tap tuning.

[lyndon]

415-440 is 100 cents, not 50 cents, my guess is youve been listening to too much of rap musician 50cent to know whats going on.

[Bill Yacey]

You seem to keep making the assumption that 415Hz is indeed what they used at that time. I have never been able to find any historical information of this being fact. My understanding is this was chosen at as a Baroque concert pitch in modern times, because of it's relationship to A 440. This would allow fixed pitch modern instruments to be used as well.

How does 380Hz fit into your belief, or 400, 409, 422, 423, 435, 450, 451, 480? These are all concert pitches used in Europe in the past, and all fall in between the cracks of what you are promulgating. You profess to have much experience and knowledge on this topic, so why don't you just answer the questions instead of making derogatory comments? The whole intent of the forum is for open discussion and dissemination of information.