sore back making violins

[actonern]

I've been spending a healthy amount of time over these holidays making another instrument. It's always been the case for me, but this year I really seem to be feeling the sore back from hunching over a bench.

Is this an occupational hazard or am I special?

[Andy Burger]

I have the same problem. I'm no expert but i find that if i alternate between sitting and standing it helps a bit.

[fiddlewallop]

I get a sore back as well. And sore fingers from purfling work.

I picked up an antique wooden chair from the by-gone days of mill work from the Industrial Revolution era. I think it's called an ironing board chair, because the back of the chair looks like an ironing board. In any case, I really like it because it puts me in perfect height with my work bench. This helps the sitting down work, but I find myself standing up when using the gouge. You kind of need to be hunched over in order to gouge properly, it seems.

[Suzanne J]

Dentists have this problem too!!

Have a look at perching stools where you can sit at an inbetween height - may or may not help.

[COB3]

Evan Smith showed me a change he made that saves the back. It is an "easel" of sorts, that sits on the workbench, and elevates the work to a 60 degree angle. He modified a work cradle by riddling it with grabber (drywall) screws, so that just the points came through, then coated the easel with indoor/outdoor carpet. the result is a very stable work surface. He demonstrated by throwing the work cradle (violin plate attached) at the easel from several feet away. It hit at an odd angle, but instantly gripped, and held.

Every time my back hurts, I remember that gadget, and think, "I oughta..." but never have gotten around to making one.

[Doc Eastman]

Surgeons have the same trouble from bending over the operating table. Helps to put one foot up on a small foot stool. By elevating the knee it helps relieve back muscle strain. Same idea as bring knees to chest while laying on the floor. I have a very bad back and bought a good adjustable shop stool that allows me to adjust the height for a particular operation. It also has a foot rest bar and putting one foot, or both, up on the bar has the same effect as using the foot stool when standing. Resting one arm on the bench also helps. This is why I predominantly use finger planes (mostly round soled and toothed blades because they are relatively insensitive to grain) for shaping, graduation. Heat helps. My wife made a cloth tube that is filled with rice. A minute or two in a microwave and it is warm enough. Has a shoe string on each end so I can tie around my waist. These measures have greatly increased my bench time.

[Oded Kishony]

I use a similar strategy that Chet mentions above. I prop the instrument or the plate on a bed and brace it against the edge of the bench. I avoid bending at the waist over the bench. I take a break every 10-15 minutes to stretch and I have several adjustable stools for various tasks. When I hurt my back it's from swinging an ax a shovel or a rake.

I've seen many violin makers with serious back problems but with a little attention most people can avoid these injuries.

Oded

[Muswell]

I built my bench at the height I find most comfortable for planing but for delicate work I add a 3ft by 2ft platform which is a sheet of MDF on cross bearers and raises part of the working surface by 6in. I don't like to work sitting down, the relatively static position is the problem. Another advantage of the top is that I don't mind putting holes in it to hold things.

[MANFIO]

I had a tendonitis in my thumb about 10 years ago... Right now I have some issues with my left shoulder, I just can`t put my left arm completely up, but I am treating it. I know about 2 makers in NYC with shoulder problems too.

Oded and Chet, do you have a photo of this gadget?

[richardz]

I've been researching back trouble on the web, and found a video of stretches which I'll post below. From the small amount I've been looking, I gleaned that back trouble isn't necessarily caused only by what you are doing, but also from stiff or weak muscles. FYI: also from what I read, even people who have operations say yoga like excercises designed specifically for back trouble helped them much more than operations. Hope some of this is applicable....

link for back exercises.

[COB3]

I had a tendonitis in my thumb about 10 years ago... Right now I have some issues with my left shoulder, I just can`t put my left arm completely up, but I am treating it. I know about 2 makers in NYC with shoulder problems too.

Oded and Chet, do you have a photo of this gadget?

Nope. I was hoping Evan would speak up. It was a sturdy equilateral triangle, maybe 24"-30" square on each side, if memory serves, that could be folded flat for transport, but which was very rigid in use. The front was covered with that short-napped indoor/outdoor carpet, and the cradle had the screws penetrating it all over, so it would hang onto the carpet. (You wouldn't want to accidentally come in contact with the back of the cradle).

That's about all I recall, except that the cradle had some sort of cleats that could be rotated to hold the plates.

[Matthew Noykos]

Actonern,

my short response would be to check out Alexander Technique. Many musicians are already very familiar with it.

I was exposed to it in my undergrad and I ended up taking private lessons in the technique for a whole summer while I was at a music festival. Then in grad school I was exposed to it with my primary teacher as he was a big user and supporter of the technique. It may seem a bit granola at first, but give it a chance. I tend to think more scientifically about things and require proof before I believe in the validity of a process, but I use this stuff everyday and I think it works without a doubt. It basically teaches you how to think about your body and movement. It focuses on using your natural skeletal structure to support your weight and movement. When done right, every movement can be very strong, balanced, and stress free. This applies to sitting, standing, hitting a baseball, playing a cello, walking, or rough arching a top and carving a bridge.

I started learning the technique as a way to play my instrument without strain, but it ended improving my tone and overall playing technique. When I got into luthiery, I applied all the techniques I learned to that field and it was very effective. Just a thought for you.

Edit: If this interests you, my advice would be to find a private Alexander Technique instructor in your area. In that case they would be able to look at the specific tasks you have difficulty with and teach you a different way to do it pain free.

[Muswell]

I support everything Matthew says about Alexander technique. I took classes for 16 years from someone who gave classes at the Royal Academy of Music from someone and was still discovering new things about how the body works when I stopped. It takes a while to sink in but it makes you much more observant of how you use your body and can transform the way you do things so the effort and strain is minimised.

[Oded Kishony]

Oded and Chet, do you have a photo of this gadget?

There isn't any gadget involved. When I'm using a finger plane to smooth out the bumps I put the the plate on a bed (which is simply a piece of plywood with a cutout so the plate is supported)and sitting at my bench I have the bed resting on the edge of my bench (at !45 degrees) and the other end on my lap. I can then rotate the plate as I work on it.

I believe that if you remain conscious of possible strains to your back and work to avoid those strains you won't hurt your back. I also think yoga can be very helpful in both maintaining flexibility and being aware of strains. I've done yoga on and off since I was in my twenties. I've also had musicians swear by the Alexander technique and have seen good results.

Oded

[actonern]

Thanks everyone. Like Doc says, the primary strain seems to come from long stints with head turned downward...

Best regards,

E

[richardz]

Can anyone reccommend any good links on Alexander Technique?

[Muswell]

The American Society for the Alexander Technique has a web site which is a good starting place. I have a very good book "Body Know-How" by Jonathan Drake pub. Thorsons,the model for the photos is my teacher. It gives a good idea of what is involved but I don't think you can learn AT from a book, the book really is a supplement to the classes.

[captainhook]

A friend was a surgeon/cardiologist/anesthesiologist (which he was teaching at Yale med school when he retired). In 2001 he was having severe back problems with a long list of issues and planned surgery. Then he found a study that said that patients who had back surgery were no better off after five years than similar patients who did not. His surgeon was not understanding so he changed Drs and found an Alexander teacher. Within a few months and to this day you would never guess that he had a problem.

My own solution was to observe how animals stretch and do likewise.

[richardz]

Captain hook:

"Then he found a study that said that patients who had back surgery were no better off after five years than similar patients who did not."

Yes but if they surveyed the doctors, they would find out that they were better off as a result of the surgery : )

Always pays to do some homework.

Muswell:

Thanks I'll check out the site and the book.

[David Burgess]

A friend was a surgeon/cardiologist/anesthesiologist (which he was teaching at Yale med school when he retired). In 2001 he was having severe back problems with a long list of issues and planned surgery. Then he found a study that said that patients who had back surgery were no better off after five years than similar patients who did not. His surgeon was not understanding so he changed Drs and found an Alexander teacher. Within a few months and to this day you would never guess that he had a problem.

Yes but if they surveyed the doctors, they would find out that they were better off as a result of the surgery : )

Maybe not. I'm blessed enough to have an internal medicine guy, also a musician, who has advised against surgery for years (though it has been recommended to me many times), based upon outcomes, with some interpretation. Pill popping and surgery have better statistical outcomes in many cases, because average patients aren't sufficiently motivated to do some real work. Ya can get people to submit to surgery and taking pills more easily than getting them to commit to learning, or a lifelong maintenance regimen.

He too is one who claims that Xray and MRI pictures of spinal problems don't correlate well with pain and disability.

[Don Noon]

I have found that the worst thing for my neck and back is sitting at the computer, staring at the screen for hours on end. Gotta stop that.

[Michael Richwine]

I have a couple of old back injuries that flare up once in a while when I'm neglectful, sometimes to the "don't dare breathe" point. They generally get resolved with a combination of yoga, qigong, and strength-building exercises. Can't remember the names of the Yoga asanas, but I found this book on Qigong to be very helpful: Back Pain Relief: Chinese Qigong for Healing and Prevention I do Qigong in conjunction with other martial arts, but these exercises are aimed specifically at helping the back.

Prevention is mostly through good work habits and ergonomics. I've done bench work for a good part of my life, and try to do everything I can sitting down. An adjustable-hieght chair is a big help. For stand-up work, it's important to have your bench at a height that lets your forearms be horizontal as you hold your tools. You can get a lot more power from hips and legs. Too high, and it's all arm and shoulder; too low, and you end up hunching over.

There's very little work that can't be done with a straight back and fairly straight neck. It may feel awkward to begin with, but it's much more comfortable in the long run.

Exercising and stretching in general is important. I have a friend my age who was a world-class athlete and who still is a fitness fanatic. He mentioned to me that he thinks stretching is more important to his strength and fitness than his weight routine. If I don't get enough exercise, my brain works even worse than normal.

Edit: the Plow, Cobra, and seated spinal twist or half spinal twist are some of the more helpful asanas (poses). Recent American clinical studies have found yoga to be more effective than traditional physical therapy in treating back pain.

[Michael_Molnar]

Nope. I was hoping Evan would speak up. It was a sturdy equilateral triangle, maybe 24"-30" square on each side, if memory serves, that could be folded flat for transport, but which was very rigid in use. The front was covered with that short-napped indoor/outdoor carpet, and the cradle had the screws penetrating it all over, so it would hang onto the carpet. (You wouldn't want to accidentally come in contact with the back of the cradle).

That's about all I recall, except that the cradle had some sort of cleats that could be rotated to hold the plates.

Chet,

Was this the device seen at many Chimneys Workshops ca. 2007? I had a photo but lost it. The device was like a collapsible lectern or book holder. The angle of elevation was controlled much like a beach chair's ratchet. Yes, it had carpet on the surface holding the work. If I recall, the fellow using it was from Bermuda.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

[David Burgess]

If you really want to go after this, it can also be useful to keep a food diary, versus symptoms. We eat a lot of stuff today which wasn't a big part of the diet during most of human history, including large quantities of dairy products and grass seed.

I don't eat either of these much any more, and I'm a whole lot better off than I was 30 years ago. Might just be coincidence.

[DMartin]

If you really want to go after this, it can also be useful to keep a food diary, versus symptoms. We eat a lot of stuff today which wasn't a big part of the diet during most of human history, including large quantities of dairy products and grass seed.

I don't eat either of these much any more, and I'm a whole lot better off than I was 30 years ago. Might just be coincidence.

Same for me!