Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

What Makes A Price Justified?


Fellow

Recommended Posts

i predict fake chinese violins on ebay, made in china, but with the fake labels of top medal winning real chinese makers

++++++++++++++

When I shop at my local shop, (for rehair a bow) I used the opportunity to see some violins. I look at the f-hole

to read Italian then the pretty young lady told me, " Never mind, no one trusts the label "

Then the violin all the sudden looks Italian. The varnish looks special too. it is a $28k violin.

I said " not bad,it is real ". I believe some violins are so good, with or without the label. It makes no

difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i predict fake chinese violins on ebay, made in china, but with the fake labels of top medal winning real chinese makers

+++++++++++++++++++

I guess most important of all is not to overpay your violins. If a violin is labeled Italian and looks so good priced at only $500, you should expect it is a fake.

I play violins at price only in range $2k to $4k . My friends are professionals who play $200K range violins I could not even make any comments on their

violins. (it has certificate and history of owners etc) I use my ears than my mouth.

It is real, because it is the insurable for that kind of money. If it is stolen or damaged , it will be repaid by a bank check.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really... what exactly does "justified" mean? Aren't there various situations? Justifying a purchase to yourself or to the public at large? ...or do you really mean "How do you determine a market value?"

There's always "I own it and I want $xxx.xx for it"... or one can look to appraisal definitions and practices, like (example of one):

"The sales comparison approach in an appraisal is based primarily on the principle of substitution. This approach assumes a prudent individual will pay no more for an than it would cost to purchase a comparable substitute item. The approach recognizes that a typical buyer will compare asking prices and seek to purchase the item that meets his or her wants and needs for the lowest cost. In developing the sales comparison approach, the appraiser attempts to interpret and measure the actions of parties involved in the marketplace, including buyers, sellers, and investors."

The approach establishes value by comparison to similar or like items sold, or being sold, in the selected marketplace(s). The trick is knowing what you're actually starting with... and since other items sold in the marketplace are rarely, if ever, exact matches, knowing how to make reasonable adjustments for period, quality of example, condition, provenance, etc.. Oh... and if evaluating something for another person, keeping ones personal and subjective tastes out of the equation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In developing the sales comparison approach, the appraiser attempts to interpret and measure the actions of parties involved in the marketplace, including buyers, sellers, and investors."

Jeffrey,

That's an interesting and reassuring statement. It would mean that a one of a kind sale of a maker's instrument (for example, the Zygmuntowicz copy of a Stern del Gesu at about $125,000) would not excessively skew the price of the maker's instruments in general.

It looks like an appraiser would not be generalizing with something like: "The average price of maker X is Y dollars." That would be, if I understand correctly, a near meaningless or at least misleading statement.

It looks like the appraiser's statement would be more along the lines of, "Given conditions A, B, C,..., this instrument can be priced at Y."

In the case of an appraisal price far outside the average for a maker, would the appraisal contain information, something close to a warning, that the appraised price is an exceptional one, either high or low, because of some exceptional conditions? If so, would that warning be explicit, or would the reader of the appraisal have to put that warning together from other information in the appraisal? In short, how are the exceptional examples (either good or bad) of a maker handled in an appraisal in terms of pricing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really... what exactly does "justified" mean? Aren't there various situations? Justifying a purchase to yourself or to the public at large? ...or do you really mean "How do you determine a market value?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I meant if I damage his violin by mistake like I have my car run over it. My max liability is $200K if the insurance does not covered..

Hence, I never want to try his violin until he insisted that insurance would cover. $200k become a number.

The chance of damaging a violin is very small, I have not droped my violin even once after 45 years of playing.

It is more chance when you are walking and hold a violin in your hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It looks like the appraiser's statement would be more along the lines of, "Given conditions A, B, C,..., this instrument can be priced at Y."

In the case of an appraisal price far outside the average for a maker, would the appraisal contain information, something close to a warning, that the appraised price is an exceptional one, either high or low, because of some exceptional conditions? If so, would that warning be explicit, or would the reader of the appraisal have to put that warning together from other information in the appraisal? In short, how are the exceptional examples (either good or bad) of a maker handled in an appraisal in terms of pricing?

Yup. You have the idea...

Yes. Exceptional conditions known to the appraiser, which do sometimes exist (and can affect value in either direction), should be clearly stated within the text in a full appraisal (the type often used for estate valuations, charitable donations, fair market evaluations, real estate appraisals, etc.), or their general existence mentioned (referred to) in a summary appraisal (the type most used for obtaining insurance coverage, for example). In both cases, details should to be documented in the appraisers work files.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To put this in terms of an economic class - a violin strictly speaking has no intrinsic value in and of itself, you can't eat it (but it could be converted to fuel i suppose). A violin only has value in the market place where a buyer and a seller meet at a price, if the violin is irreplaceable, as in few in number, great condition by a great maker then the seller has some leverage in the negotiations, a new Chinese instrument the buyer has the upper hand in the pricing.

Reese

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are several "market values" depending on the circumstances. We had this in a recent thread, where I posted an abridged version of the guidelines that I use when valuing for a law court. "Robheys" kindly translated thus:

In the absence of particular rules for the valuation of violins, the best action is to use as a guide the rules for „expert valuation“ in the oriental carpet market, published in the periodical „The Expert“ of the Society of general judicially approved experts of Austria.

It lists the most important valuation and trading categories.

a) Average European wholesale value

2) Retail value. The retail value is made up of the wholesale value plus the normal regional markup including VAT.

c) Value for private sales. Use the wholesale value plus import duties and VAT.

d) „Buying in“ value. The value for a sale from a private person to a professional dealer. This value would be a maximum of 70% the wholesale value. This value should also be used for probate valuations.

e) Value when take as Security. Maximum 50% wholesale value

f) Value in a forced sale. 50% of the wholesale price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To put this in terms of an economic class - a violin strictly speaking has no intrinsic value in and of itself, you can't eat it (but it could be converted to fuel i suppose). A violin only has value in the market place where a buyer and a seller meet at a price, if the violin is irreplaceable, as in few in number, great condition by a great maker then the seller has some leverage in the negotiations, a new Chinese instrument the buyer has the upper hand in the pricing.

Reese

+++++++++++++++

A violin as a musical instrument, has its value. It may be instrinsic too. It may not be as much as the owner think. The value of an ordinary violin usually goes by its replacement value. Conditions can

be factored in. Extremely rare violins are different. Collectors are interested in owning them. They make up another class. Appraisel people can tell us more .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...