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For anyone who does touch up,


Skywalker
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Learning touch up (which I am finding is never-ending!) has opened my eyes to lots of new ideas about color and the light spectrum. I am amazed to see how adding adding the right amount of greens, purples, and blues to touch up can really help make things disappear. As well as, holding the instrument in several different lighting situations to really see what is happening with the wood, varnish, and color.

Thus, I found this article interesting.

I apologize to the few of you who have to learn that your favorite color doesn't exist. :lol:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/what-do-you-call-the-colour-pink-if-it-doesnt-exist/story-fn5fsgyc-1226170794531

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This is one of the best things I've read on colour. Brilliantly written and essential reading for anyone doing photography, but also of general interest if you are working with colours at all.

http://www.xrite.com/documents/apps/public/misc/Color_Primer_by_Fred_Bunting.pdf

Alan, that was a great reading!!!!

Thanks a lot!

Jose

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That's a great modern take on 'pink'. Very interesting.

I've heard a very antiquated use of 'pink' as more of a process of whiting out a color. Similarly, 'lake' later was sometimes used to name a type of red, but originally was more about a particular coloring making process.

In this archaic sense, you might have 'pinks' based on other colors then red or purple.

I couldn't find much of any reference to this usage on the web. Except for some mentions of 'pink' to refer to a yellow lake of buckthorn. 'English Pink'

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Looks pink to me.

The video in toward the middle of the article laid it out quite nicely, I thought...plus he draws a picture of a pretty pink sheep...*ahem*

It was just food for thought.

Ahem yourself. Didn't you try to convert me from sheep to women? Didn't I try to warn you about women, and some in particular? :P

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Learning touch up (which I am finding is never-ending!) has opened my eyes to lots of new ideas about color and the light spectrum. I am amazed to see how adding adding the right amount of greens, purples, and blues to touch up can really help make things disappear. As well as, holding the instrument in several different lighting situations to really see what is happening with the wood, varnish, and color.

Skywalker, Thanks for the links,I was amazed at Joe's varnish workshop, Color in general. There was distinct emphasis of no pink as a goal.....and how green,yellow, blue and black work against the pink....while still appearing to be red.....I also am thinking of color density in relation to mass tone.

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http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/what-do-you-call-the-colour-pink-if-it-doesnt-exist/story-fn5fsgyc-1226170794531

That's not pink, it's purple. Pink is light red. Mix red with white to get pastel red and that's pink.

Yep.

I thought the same thing - definately purple. (the big dot, that is))

I'm wondering now, how many people see pink and how many see purple?

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Yep.

I thought the same thing - definately purple. (the big dot, that is))

I'm wondering now, how many people see pink and how many see purple?

It's all in the eye of the beholder :D

so this is what I learned when I was 6 and playing with crayons. red and blue makes purple. red and yellow makes orange. yellow and blue makes green. Brown is dark orange. red and green makes a dingy gray black. peachy skin tone is light orange. pink is light red.

Enough preschool color theory, I have a question about those who do touch up. If you do touchup on a 1700s cremona instrument, are you able to reprduce the irreproducable cremona finish? If so, how?

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There seems to be some confusion here between additive (light) colors, and subtractive (pigment & dye colors). Apples and octopi. The video is pretty confusing and inaccurate, in that it tries to relate light colors to a color wheel, when they actually exist on a more or less linear continuum - no circularity exists.

I think it was Prang who came up with the accepted color wheel, but that has to do with pigments and dyes only, not additive light colors, and it works quite well for mixing colors, but only if you have pure colors to begin with. Most pigments are "off" in one direction or other; reds too yellow (orangey), blues leaning towards red or black, etc. You can make earth tones from primary colors, even raw umber, but why bother, since they are available already.

With pigments, pink is a "tint" of red, that is, red mixed with white. Conversely, olive is a "Shade" of yellow - yellow mixed with black. I find that I can match just about any color with just pure red, blue, and yellow, along with black and white. Metallics and fluorescents excepted, of course.

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It's all in the eye of the beholder :D

so this is what I learned when I was 6 and playing with crayons. red and blue makes purple. red and yellow makes orange. yellow and blue makes green. Brown is dark orange. red and green makes a dingy gray black. peachy skin tone is light orange. pink is light red.

Enough preschool color theory, I have a question about those who do touch up. If you do touchup on a 1700s cremona instrument, are you able to reprduce the irreproducable cremona finish? If so, how?

What I have learned through the years is that blue and yellow doesn't make green, except for when it does, and that pink doesn't exist, except for when it does exist.

Which all of my grand daughters will attest to.

I have a question for professional retouchers also.

I'll wait a while to ask it, as I think it will send us off on another tangent.

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It's all in the eye of the beholder :D

so this is what I learned when I was 6 and playing with crayons. red and blue makes purple. red and yellow makes orange. yellow and blue makes green. Brown is dark orange. red and green makes a dingy gray black. peachy skin tone is light orange. pink is light red.

Enough preschool color theory, I have a question about those who do touch up. If you do touchup on a 1700s cremona instrument, are you able to reprduce the irreproducable cremona finish? If so, how?

You need to have 18th century crayons.:)

Even with fresh, genuine Cremonese varnish, you would still have to match the effects of time and usage to match the varnish surrounding the repair, otherwise you'll have a bright fresh looking spot sticking out like a sore thumb. re-touching is more of a game of hiding the damage to best effect.

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Hey Craig

Please ask! I think all of us enjoy your "tangents".

Joe

Ok, here goes.

I am able enough to oil varnish new violins, and get exactly the result I want. But, as I believe many makers have discovered, having a proficient varnishing ability doesn't necessarily translate into proficient retouching skill.

When I started repairing violins on a regular basis, and retouching, I was taught to use Deft clear coat, and Jack Goddard industrial colors - and they worked well enough for me - but I never really got a consistent result I was happy with, and eventually I pretty much simply phased out the retouching, because I never became proficient at it, at a professional level.

I thik that it was just easier to avoid the whole thing by refusing to mess with it.

I'm thinking about tackling the skill again, at a higher level, and my main question has to do with spirit compatible colorants. I believe that most retouching has to do with spirit varnishes - even on an oil varnish finish.

I have some Luscomb 1704 spirit varnish, and various flake shellacs that I commonly use, and am looking for a set of primary colors and, perhaps some browns and yellows.

What is good and are there specific brands to use with various spirit varnishes?

Any suggestions?

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Thanks for the post Craig. I was planning on heading to the store on Friday to buy a core set of colors to practice with on the weekend, but was going to wing it as to what to buy. I have a can of clear spirit varnish at the ready. Looking forward to any light that can be shed on this topic.

... and am looking for a set of primary colors and, perhaps some browns and yellows.

What is good and are there specific brands to use with various spirit varnishes?

Any suggestions?

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At first I thought we were only going to argue what the color pink was on this thread but now we are getting somewhere else. Skywalker, interesting link. Thanks.

Ct, how were you taught to apply deft? I think touch-up is more than just matching color. Four main things to consider in my opinion. Color, amount of transparency or opaqueness, matte or satin finish etc, and texture of the varnish. I could get into various amounts of depth on this subject, but I may search the archives to see if someone else has already hit on this subject exhaustively or not, before I really delve into it.

What is good and are there specific brands to use with various spirit varnishes?

Any suggestions?

Orasol Dyes

http://www.museumservicescorporation.com/scat/p.html

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A couple of years ago, I learned quite a few tips from Andrew Fairfax at Oberlin. He works at the Beare's shop in London. They use these dyes.

http://scottstudios.net/magisterproducts/archiveproducts.html

I use these sometimes now and I also still use the orasol dyes. They have different qualities but both work pretty well. With the magister products I think it would be helpful to get more than what is in the droppers because you will lack blue or green. Whenever I am using the magister stuff and I need those colors, I pull from my orasol pallette. The Emerald green pigment sounds interesting to me, but I have never used it.

Bill Scott sells matting agent too. I find this is essential to get the touch-up to match well. Matting agent works on almost every touch-up job.

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Here's mine for basic touchup:

Touchup varnish: 70% super blond shellac, 15% mastic, 15% sandarac, let down in 190 proof ethyl alcohol to a 2 lb cut. Make up about 6 months worth at a time. Thin as needed. I use the same stuff thinned way down for a padding (french polishing?) varnish to seal between color coats and to blend in repairs.

Colors: Metallized dyes mixed with about 15% rosin as a binder, dried in wells so it can be used like watercolor. I used to use Transfast dye powders, but it's been discontinued so I use TransTint, mixed with rosin and dries. Colors are easy to work with, and transparent. I also use pigments with rosin as a binder where a bit of opacity is needed.

Crack filler: 50% shellac, 50% sandarac, as thick as I can make it and still lay down a 1/2 mm bead. Trim crack fills with a small, sharp scraper; don't try to sand until the fill is level and you've padded a couple of coats of clear over it. Too much danger of sanding through color.

Brushes: Good, clean sable brushes are critical. I use Silver Falcon, 000 through 1 or 2.

Technique: Seal damage first with clear, so that color won't soak into the wood (doom!). Match the lightest color in the background first, then draw in the figure, connecting to existing figure. Keep the touchup confined to the damaged area only. DO NOT add color to any of the undamaged area; it'll just make the repair more conspicuous.

Build color in layers, sealing each one with clear to saturate the colors so you can see what you are doing. Stop before you think you are done. My clearest signal to stop is when I have a hard time finding the repair again after looking away. Repairs usually darken as the new varnish cures down.

I mix my colors on a white pallet. Works for me. That's the rudiments; I find I can make most scratches and dings disappear, but it took a fair amount of practice.

I have never needed any kind of shellac flattener. Matching sheen is really not a problem. Keep everything as thin as possible. The biggest difference I found between furniture touchup and violin touchup is that you have only about 1/3 to 1/4 as much dry film thickness on a fiddle.

I'll be interested in reading how others get good results.

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This is great stuff.

Thanks Matthew and Nonado, for the tips and info. Maestronet comes through again.

I was checking out a repair (restoration) that was done on a friends $60,000.00 Italian violin, by someone I know fairly well. He gave her a real break on the price because she had a second violin and didn't have a time restraint. The repair (fairly extensive) took almost a year to complete.

The repair was really invisible, by virtue very close color matching, and a very close closing /gluing of the break(s)and cracks, which I expected, because this guy is pretty good and experienced, but when I inspected the repair closely, it looked like I was looking through a thin layer of clear glass, and I could see a slight indentation in the wood, where the worst crack had been, but not in the surface of the varnish, and nothing amiss in the coloration of the varnish...

It was well camouflaged, and I think that if I wasn't so set on finding evidence of the mechanical repair, I would probably have missed it completely.

Is this effect , of a small amount of “clear depth” or fill, fairly commonplace with extensive damage and with crack repairs?

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...I'll be interested in reading how others get good results.

I can't say that I always get the results that I would hope for, but I can mention one pitfall that I always work to avoid: There always seems to be a tendency to make the color too red. Remember that brown already has red in it. If you add red to brown to make a red-brown, you will often get something that comes out too red when you have built up the color dark enough. Always go easy on the red.

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Ct, how were you taught to apply deft? I think touch-up is more than just matching color. Four main things to consider in my opinion. Color, amount of transparency or opaqueness, matte or satin finish etc, and texture of the varnish. I could get into various amounts of depth on this subject, but I may search the archives to see if someone else has already hit on this subject exhaustively or not, before I really delve into it.

Orasol Dyes

With an assortment of sable brushes.

It was sort of a "one finish fits all" philosophy. At the time, I was mainly doing school orchestra repairs. And fixing a lot of old instruments and old screw ups.

I know this is a subject that I will ever only skim the surface of, but I do have the idea that I can become at least passably well versed in it.

Thanks for the links again, Matthew, I have decided to order a few of the orasol dyes (primary colors). Is there a key to decipher the letters beside the dye color descriptions - that you are aware of? as, I would prefer to get as close to "primary" value as possible.

Have you ever called and talked with them about such things?

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