joerobson Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Berl, as mentioned above, this is interesting information. Have you tried this recipe? Come to think of it, Bisiach violins have much in common with Beckers both from a varnish standpoint and also tonally. Glenn Glen, Most of the gum elemi I have seen over the past few years looked and smelled odd, so take care if you are making this stuff. I made have some old elemi. If you get busy with this recipe let me know and I will try to find it. Joe
GlennYorkPA Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Posted October 19, 2011 Glen, Most of the gum elemi I have seen over the past few years looked and smelled odd, so take care if you are making this stuff. I made have some old elemi. If you get busy with this recipe let me know and I will try to find it. Joe Joe, I haven't made a varnish for decades but, like you, I know I had a jar containing some elemi, It was a whitish, soft resin from the Philippines but I can't recall the smell. I don't ever remember using it either. It never figured much in the recipes I was seeing 40 years ago so I'm surprised to learn now that Bisiach used it. I used propolis and that produced a very soft (and fragrant) varnish which took a year or two to dry properly. Did you ever use it in a sprit based varnish? Glenn
Oded Kishony Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 elemi was often an ingredient in the 1704 varnish recipe. It's expressed purpose in the varnish was to soften the varnish. It starts out as a soft, gummy, fragrant resin, but over time it turns very hard and brittle. Oded
joerobson Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Joe, I haven't made a varnish for decades but, like you, I know I had a jar containing some elemi, It was a whitish, soft resin from the Philippines but I can't recall the smell. I don't ever remember using it either. It never figured much in the recipes I was seeing 40 years ago so I'm surprised to learn now that Bisiach used it. I used propolis and that produced a very soft (and fragrant) varnish which took a year or two to dry properly. Did you ever use it in a sprit based varnish? Glenn Glenn, Yes. In the "searching" phase I used everything at least once. I abandoned elemi in favor of mastic as a plasticizer. Joe
Berl Mendenhall Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Bisiach Recipe - Sandarac 125gms Gum Lac 62gms Mastic 31gms Benzoin 31gms Turpentine 62gms I suppose this is Venice Turps. Alcohol 2 liters Fiorini Recipe - Sandarac 125gms Mastic 62gms Gum Lac 62gms Elemi 31gms Venice Turpentine 62gms Alcohol 1 liter These recipes come from a correspondence between Fiorini and Bisiach. Quote from artical _ Firoini queries the large volum of alcohol, pointing out it would be too dilute and dissolve previous coats. He suggest halving the amount of alcohol, and gives his own formulation, (above) which he took from Watin. He explains that the elemi is preferable to Benzoin, 'since it is more stable and mixes better', and that the higher porportion of Mastic gives a greater brilliance and is more "resurgent". I'm not sure which magazine this artical came from. I copied it and had it in a note book. Berl
Berl Mendenhall Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Bisiach Recipe - Sandarac 125gms Gum Lac 62gms Mastic 31gms Benzoin 31gms Turpentine 62gms I suppose this is Venice Turps. Alcohol 2 liters Fiorini Recipe - Sandarac 125gms Mastic 62gms Gum Lac 62gms Elemi 31gms Venice Turpentine 62gms Alcohol 1 liter These recipes come from a correspondence between Fiorini and Bisiach. Quote from artical _ Firoini queries the large volum of alcohol, pointing out it would be too dilute and dissolve previous coats. He suggest halving the amount of alcohol, and gives his own formulation, (above) which he took from Watin. He explains that the elemi is preferable to Benzoin, 'since it is more stable and mixes better', and that the higher porportion of Mastic gives a greater brilliance and is more "resurgent". I'm not sure which magazine this artical came from. I copied it and had it in a note book. Berl Does anyone know who the above mentioned Watin is? Berl
Oded Kishony Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Google "The art of the Painter, Varnisher and Guilder" Jean Felix Watin 1772 Oded
fiddlecollector Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 I know the article was in the Strad in the 1980`s,cant find my copy .
GlennYorkPA Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Posted October 19, 2011 elemi was often an ingredient in the 1704 varnish recipe. It's expressed purpose in the varnish was to soften the varnish. It starts out as a soft, gummy, fragrant resin, but over time it turns very hard and brittle. Oded Oded, Do you mean it turns hard and brittle in the varnish or just when kept by itself? If it doesn't do its job long term in the varnish, maybe that's the reason Bisiach replaced it with benzoin. Glenn
GlennYorkPA Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Posted October 19, 2011 Bisiach Recipe - Sandarac 125gms Gum Lac 62gms Mastic 31gms Benzoin 31gms Turpentine 62gms I suppose this is Venice Turps. Alcohol 2 liters Fiorini Recipe - Sandarac 125gms Mastic 62gms Gum Lac 62gms Elemi 31gms Venice Turpentine 62gms Alcohol 1 liter These recipes come from a correspondence between Fiorini and Bisiach. Quote from artical _ Firoini queries the large volum of alcohol, pointing out it would be too dilute and dissolve previous coats. He suggest halving the amount of alcohol, and gives his own formulation, (above) which he took from Watin. He explains that the elemi is preferable to Benzoin, 'since it is more stable and mixes better', and that the higher porportion of Mastic gives a greater brilliance and is more "resurgent". I'm not sure which magazine this artical came from. I copied it and had it in a note book. Berl Berl, I'll keep a note of these recipes myself. Did you ever try them or do you know anyone who did? Glenn
Oded Kishony Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Do you mean it turns hard and brittle in the varnish or just when kept by itself?If it doesn't do its job long term in the varnish, maybe that's the reason Bisiach replaced it with benzoin. The elemi turned into a very hard crumbly rock. There isn't any way to know exactly what it does long term in the varnish. And it may do different things in different varnishes. When I saw what it turned into I stopped using it. As far as I know benzoin was used principally for fragrance. It is also a hard and crumbly rock when dry. Smells wonderful. Oded
Berl Mendenhall Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 Berl, I'll keep a note of these recipes myself. Did you ever try them or do you know anyone who did? Glenn No, I've not tried a varnish that is heavy on the Sandarac. The ones I've tried are Seed Lac based. Berl
Oded Kishony Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 The elemi turned into a very hard crumbly rock. As an example, mastic for instance, stays quite pliant for a very long time..... OK
joerobson Posted November 15, 2011 Report Posted November 15, 2011 I finally found that instrument..... This is a viola by Renato Scrollavezza circa 1970. Oil of rosemary spirit varnish with [good] dragon's blood. I saw this instrument in 2008. The color is spectacular and the edges are almost translucent. Joe
Oded Kishony Posted November 16, 2011 Report Posted November 16, 2011 oil of rosemary, is it like spike of lavender? Sounds like it also contains some resin. What can you share about this varnish? Looks quite nice in the photo. Oded
joerobson Posted November 16, 2011 Report Posted November 16, 2011 oil of rosemary, is it like spike of lavender? Sounds like it also contains some resin. What can you share about this varnish? Looks quite nice in the photo. Oded Oded, Oil of rosemary has camphor as an active ingredient. I do not know what resin M. Scrollavezza used, but I do know that many of his other varnishes had copal or shellac as a base. He did say that the varnish took a very long time to cure. The dragon's blood he used...he still had part of it...looked like a purple stick. I have not seen that quality ever. Happy hunting!............ on we go, Joe
Oded Kishony Posted November 16, 2011 Report Posted November 16, 2011 I understand that the Becker varnish takes a full year to dry! Too long for me ;-) OK
MikeC Posted November 16, 2011 Report Posted November 16, 2011 I understand that the Becker varnish takes a full year to dry! Too long for me ;-) OK Thanks! I don't feel so bad about mine now!
fiddlecollector Posted November 16, 2011 Report Posted November 16, 2011 Oded, Oil of rosemary has camphor as an active ingredient. I do not know what resin M. Scrollavezza used, but I do know that many of his other varnishes had copal or shellac as a base. He did say that the varnish took a very long time to cure. The dragon's blood he used...he still had part of it...looked like a purple stick. I have not seen that quality ever. Happy hunting!............ on we go, Joe Joe , i cant see much dragonblood colour in that varnish,but maybe he only used a small amount. I think ive tried every type of dragonsblood available over the years and there wasnt much difference between all of them. The last i bought was that expensive emzolo stuff from Kremer ,and i wasnt impressed at all,seemed less soluble than the more usual stuff. The best type was some i collected from the canary islands and some cheap stuff from a place in Florida that sells bulk herbs,etc...dragons blood which seemed to be quite soluble in oil compared to most varieties. It can look quite good incorporated into oil varnish with some madder lake . I ve never used it in spirit varnish.
Carl Stross Posted October 16, 2013 Report Posted October 16, 2013 That's a fantastic looking violin ! Can we have a sound sample, please ?
Christopher Jacoby Posted October 16, 2013 Report Posted October 16, 2013 Beautiful. Thanks for sharing, CCM
Tommy Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 For what it is worth I had a '36 Becker (Carl G) for 15 years which probably came from the same tree as that one in the photo by CCM. That one is apparently not played because the varnish wears away quickly. Here are two other observations. - if you accidentally hit it against something you would see a white spot but it would disappear within weeks or months - did not take fingerprints just from touching it but a finger on the back for a few minutes -- the print is probably still there.....
Kat Dunham Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 I had a Becker viola (from 1951, nr 535). It was almost 20 years old when I got it, and had worn spots on the lower back and on the ribs inside the C-bouts (from a French-fitted case I assume), Where there was wear a golden ground was visible. In the 25 years I had that viola it changed basically not at all, except where I might have dinged it. I assume that means that the varnish was quite soft when the instrument was young. When I had it, the varnish seemed pretty much like any other violin varnish. Incidentally, Carl F. Becker always refered to their varnish as "a soft oil varnish"
CCM Posted October 22, 2013 Report Posted October 22, 2013 - if you accidentally hit it against something you would see a white spot but it would disappear within weeks or months - did not take fingerprints just from touching it but a finger on the back for a few minutes -- the print is probably still there..... -I've never done that (fingers crossed) -Mine doesn't hold on to fingerprints and I'm not about to press a finger into the varnish for any extended time. The tone in a word is, "PHENOMENAL". Does anyone else have photos to share, please?
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now