New Del Gesu

[JohnCockburn]

To repeat what I noted to one Maestroneter recently: There are two kinds of people who cause the most wear and tear on string instruments: The ten year old taking his fiddle back and forth to school each day and the professional musician.

I don't understand this comment. Surely the justification for holding the violin by the peg is to avoid any contact of sweaty hands with varnish, ie to minimise wear and tear?

Sorry if I'm being thick and missing the point.

[robertdo]

Most of the time, when it is not on my shoulder, I hold the violin by the neck, where there is no varnish. Holding it by one peg might run the risk of applying pressure on the peg box I believe, although the G peg is the most solid. I would say this risk exceeds the one of touching the varnish with bare hands.

But I guess professional players all get all sorts of habits, some better than others...

[lyndon]

not to mention the risk of dropping the violin

[robertdo]

Confirmation and vindication of my post.

You can see on

that Heifetz is doing the same thing from time to time (see at 1'07 and 8'05). He also take it by the end of the tailpiece in some of these videos. I don't know what the violin is, but it's likely to be a good one.

[gowan]

In one of his books Yehudi Menuhin remarked that, as much as possible, he tried to avoid touching the varnish on his violin (Lord Wilton del Desu). I think the idea was that too much touching of the body of the instrument contributes to degradation of the finish. He did allow himself, every once in a while, to give the violin a gentle caress.

[JohnCockburn]

Most of the time, when it is not on my shoulder, I hold the violin by the neck, where there is no varnish. Holding it by one peg might run the risk of applying pressure on the peg box I believe, although the G peg is the most solid. I would say this risk exceeds the one of touching the varnish with bare hands.

But I guess professional players all get all sorts of habits, some better than others...

Surely insignificant compared with string tension?

[robertdo]

Surely insignificant compared with string tension?

Most likely. Let's say it doesn't help.

[James M. Jones]

You can see on

that Heifetz is doing the same thing from time to time (see at 1'07 and 8'05). He also take it by the end of the tailpiece in some of these videos. I don't know what the violin is, but it's likely to be a good one.

looks to me like he's picking it up by the string after length.....not the tail piece....surprising to me ...but he didn't look at all surprised.....And to be honest I just picked my fiddle up the same way and by the G peg and ...unless a guys in the habit of twirling things or shouldn't be handling expensive objects no mater what,....I can't see any real problem....if any thing there would be a slight release of tension on the southern edges of the pegbox bearing surface...but some seems like just splitting hairs....Gnat hairs....

[propolis]

If I am doing something wrong, I would like to be told so in credible terms post-haste. Generally, with the left hand, I hold a violin by the neck. Quite often, picking one up from a table with the right hand, I will take it by the strings around the bridge, as if they were a lunchbox handle. I usually have something else to do with that fiddle, so I don't stand around with it that way.

It seems like a natural place to take hold. It may relieve the downforce on the table, and add to the tension trying to rotate the neck joint, but I have a hard time believing that to be significant in any reasonable larger view. There is safety in redundancy; if a string broke just then, there are three more. The only reasonable single point of failure is the tailgut. In the astronomically unlikely event that it were to break just then, I have to hope that a reflexive grip/lift on the strings would save the violin from hitting the floor. There are only so many what-ifs that a sane person can live around.

At the bench, those bets are off. I wouldn't hesitate to put a violin in a full nelson if it were necessary or possible.

[Craig Tucker]

Not to be nit-picky, but I haven't met a human yet who can accurately authenticate "any instrument out there". The best ones will will tell you "I dunno" every now and then... The ones who aren't the best will feel they should know everything and end up blowing it on a few (or sometimes more than a few).

Then, there's the question of authority. Of those who "do" authenticate instruments, how many have a reputation that will uphold and/or enhance the instrument in the marketplace.

Thanks Jeffrey.

What you have to say, is always interesting and revelatory.

I can only suppose the way things really are, when I have no firsthand experience with such matters - but reading what you have to say usually reinforces what I usually suspect is the case, so, thanks again.

ct

[skiingfiddler]

Let me state the obvious:

The safest way to pick up a violin is by two hands, one hand on the neck, and the thumb of the other hand on a top surface of the chinrest with the index finger on the back clamp of the chin rest.

If you want to pick up a fiddle by one hand, the safest way to do that is by the neck.

Indeed the strings may be pressing straight down on the bridge with a pressure of 60 lbs, but I don't have to exert 60 lbs of force to pull the top of the bridge back a full mm along the strings. I therefore assume that I need less than 60 lbs of pressure to move the top of the bridge along the strings. I also doubt that I need 60 pounds of pressure along the sides or front or back sides of the bridge in order to scoot the bridge feet around the top of the fiddle, assuming the feet aren't sitting in pits. So, if having the bridge in an undisturbed position is important to you, lifting or otherwise moving the fiddle around by grabbing the strings at the bridge doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

[jacobsaunders]

Let me state the obvious:

The safest way to pick up a violin is by two hands, one hand on the neck, and the thumb of the other hand on a top surface of the chinrest with the index finger on the back clamp of the chin rest.

If you want to pick up a fiddle by one hand, the safest way to do that is by the neck.

Indeed the strings may be pressing straight down on the bridge with a pressure of 60 lbs, but I don't have to exert 60 lbs of force to pull the top of the bridge back a full mm along the strings. I therefore assume that I need less than 60 lbs of pressure to move the top of the bridge along the strings. I also doubt that I need 60 pounds of pressure along the sides or front or back sides of the bridge in order to scoot the bridge feet around the top of the fiddle, assuming the feet aren't sitting in pits. So, if having the bridge in an undisturbed position is important to you, lifting or otherwise moving the fiddle around by grabbing the strings at the bridge doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Perhaps we should forbid Mr. Perlman from griping it between his chin and left sholder

[skiingfiddler]

Perhaps we should forbid Mr. Perlman from griping it between his chin and left sholder

No, that's a pretty safe way to hold the fiddle for playing. If you're not playing the fiddle and want to hold it, then check out the suggestions, above.

[propolis]

If I am handling a strange fiddle, I hold it by the neck and chinrest as described above. The way I sometimes pick up a violin by the strings puts no side force on the bridge at all, and puts less force on the strings than vigorous bowing would do. I am still waiting for a credible reason not to do that.

I am quite familiar with the force needed to scoot the feet around on the fiddle's top.

[jacobsaunders]

No, that's a pretty safe way to hold the fiddle for playing. If you're not playing the fiddle and want to hold it, then check out the suggestions, above.

I was only jokeing, Steven. You are quite right about the best way to hold a violin.

Although I don't keep a statistic, I have the impression that there are even more dangerous things that people do with instruments, like putting them down on a chair, or even on the floor, putting them in the case without closing the clips/zip, or Cellists lifting the cello by the fingerboard, or balancing it against a chair during a pause etc.

[propolis]

One of my favorite ways to take hold of an upright cello is by the overstand of the neck root. No pressure on the fingerboard...

[James M. Jones]

Indeed the strings may be pressing straight down on the bridge with a pressure of 60 lbs, but I don't have to exert 60 lbs of force to pull the top of the bridge back a full mm along the strings.

I was told ,but someone who has my utmost respect that the down force at the bridge is in the neighborhood of 26 lbs. I think the 60 lb figure is in reference to the total tension required to bring the strings up to pitch....that is a searies uf weights attached to the ends of the strings somehow over the nut would add up to 60 lbs. Is this correct? If so then picking up a violin by the strings would only add less than 2% to the total tension on the violin ....I don't know what down force of a vigorously played bow is, but I imagine it's much more than 2 pounds...

[skiingfiddler]

James, Thanks for that correction.

If the downward pressure on the bridge is far less than 60 pounds, then the bridge's stability on the fiddle is far less than I was assuming, and, for me at least, strengthens the case that the bridge might be moved by picking up the fiddle by the strings.

Why would the downward force of the bow have the same effect on the bridge as the upward force exerted by lifting the fiddle by the strings? Why are we talking about the force the bow exerts on the strings?

[stephen maloney]

I was once amazed when I saw a rather fine player (not Jacob Saunders, though I've heard he is equally reckless) reach out and grab a fiddle out of the case with one hand . This instrument had a very high, thin boxwood Guarneri style chinrest, and he seized it with his enormous hand, palm side down on the cup of the chinrest, fingers curled underneath the cup (fingernails on the table side). I guess the habit assumed a tight fit of the chinrest screws and further assumed that thin boxwood is unbreakable along the grain... The instrument in question was a Storioni, so no big deal, right?

[Wm. Johnston]

I was told ,but someone who has my utmost respect that the down force at the bridge is in the neighborhood of 26 lbs.

Many years ago I measured the downward force on a violin bridge, 26 pounds sound pretty close to what I got. The g string has the least force, around 6 pounds I think, and the e-string the most, about 10 pounds.

[skiingfiddler]

I was only jokeing, Steven.

Jacob,

I knew that. My 3 years living and working in Austria teaching in secondary schools taught me that Austrians love jokes and enjoy generally causing harmless mischief, and that's not just the kids.

Cellists lifting the cello by the fingerboard

Tell me it ain't so. If that applies to a serious cellist, that's unbelievable.

[James M. Jones]

James, Thanks for that correction.

If the downward pressure on the bridge is far less than 60 pounds, then the bridge's stability on the fiddle is far less than I was assuming, and, for me at least, strengthens the case that the bridge might be moved by picking up the fiddle by the strings.

Why would the downward force of the bow have the same effect on the bridge as the upward force exerted by lifting the fiddle by the strings? Why are we talking about the force the bow exerts on the strings?

I am not thinking down force, as much as longitudinal force ...the pressure applied between saddle and nut in this case ...picking up a violin and playing must both increase this figure...no?

As far as movement of the bridge is concerned remember 26 lbs is not simply 26 lbs It matters how it is applied with a large surface area then the weight will be easier to move,however....

So if 25 mm = 1 in squared = 625 mm sq. with the surface area of a bridge foot at 11mmX4.5times two = 99 625divided by 99=6.31313131 quantum!,for a factor of about 6 should there for be 26 lbs X 6 = 156 lbs per Sq in. at the bridge foot to top point ....that translates to a lot of resistance to movement......Traction I say.

[propolis]

The bow does not put only downforce on the strings. Consider the lateral forces, for example in aggressive collé or martelé bowing, or that chunky chop thing so favored by a certain segment of today's youth. That is where the rubber really meets the road.

Crunching numbers is fun, but oversimplification in aid of making the analysis tractable can lead to errors. Mathematicians call a problem "ill-conditioned" when small input changes make for big differences in the solution. That has something to do with why we use fine tuners on E strings. Simple common sense tells me lifting an E string enough to shift a tone filter tube causes discomfort in my fingers. That same sense of touch tells me how much effort it takes to scoot a bridge around on the top. I feel no discomfort when lifting a violin by the strings.

It is no secret that a tenth or a fifth of a millimeter's worth of bridge movement can affect a violin's sound. When my bridge is out of place, I put it back where it belongs. It doesn't go out of place from the way I pick up the fiddle. Your mileage may vary; some people are klutzier than others.

[duane88]

So, has anyone heard anything about the "new" del Gesu?

[propolis]

So, has anyone heard anything about the "new" del Gesu?

Nope, sorry. Last week a fellow showed me a "del Gesu" with really old strings, a red tailgut, and a settled neck. I agreed that it was an old violin, possibly 60 years or more. He covered his disappointment pretty well.