Lovely fiddle; frantic bidding !


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actually at least two if youre talking auction on ebay, fellow!

paying four times what somethings worth doesnt make you a winner, either

charlie sheen considered himself a winner, but he was paying full price for his cocaine

+++++++++++++

Wow. I understand.

My advice : " Try a few violins of similar prices before hand out your money " many good looking violins do not play well. Or they sound well

in certain conditions only" in short, do some homework first.

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Yeah! It could be one of those very, very, very long term investments....

+++++++++++

$5,900 is a lot for a violin of this kind, I agree. One time (three years ago) I saw a member of an amaturer orchestra who had a violin like this.

I believe he paid that kind of money. It had a slight bigger sound but less focused. If he wanted this kind of sound it might worth it but I don't.

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+++++++++++

$5,900 is a lot for a violin of this kind, I agree. One time (three years ago) I saw a member of an amaturer orchestra who had a violin like this.

I believe he paid that kind of money. It had a slight bigger sound but less focused. If he wanted this kind of sound it might worth it but I don't.

You've tried them both? or was that in the description, along the fact that it was a "concert" violin?

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what we have here by everyones estimation is a cheap violin selling for way more than its worth, pahdahs involvement in this process makes him a con man in my book, though in america thats just a capatilist or repuglican to me, this kind of thing probably happens at most of the violin shops or dealers in america, and practically all the sellers on ebay, so to say pahdah is some horrible crook or thief is not really true, thats just business as usual in this part of the world and elsewhere im sure

however, if pahdah was a fed dinkum bloke as we say in australia for really good dude, he would call up the customer and say this auction went for way more than i expected, id be ripping you off if i charged you this much, so im going to refund half your money, but that probably isnt going to happen

forgive me for using pahdah again as an example; hes just an obvious target because he lists it on the internet, this type of thing is typical of most or half of the violin dealers in america who either through incompetence, gullibility, inexperience or just plain greed, sell violins for way more than there worth, which is still ripping off the customer in my book, even if the seller isnt aware of it,

thats why when i sell on ebay i always set the price buy it now, and do every thing i can to make sure that price is discounted below full retail appraised value, i mean seriously i was selling a great 1895 georg gemunder, perhaps the greatest american violin maker of the 19th century(with visible cracks, repaired) for 6000 and it didnt sell on ebay after 6 months listing, i sold it to one of the top shops in LA for 5000 finally, there going to redo some crack repairs and maybe get 20,000 for it, but mine doesnt sell on ebay, while pahdahs xxxx does, go figure

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290606861713?ssPageName=STRK:MEUSX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1562.l2649

Hey Lyndon,

here's an idea:

Instead of whinning about ebay auctions and how unfair and unjust it is that P Hound gets any business and you don't and on and on and on and on,

why don't you SHOW us some examples of the fine and accurate violins YOU have for sale, or have sold?

I assume, you being the expert you are, that you have a photo record of every violin that has passed through your hands.

That would go along way towards establishing the credit and recognition you so desperately want and feel you deserve.

Rather then piss all over everyone elses merchandise, and call into question their integrity, reaffirm yours.

You have strong opinions and are not shy about sharing them so lets see some of the fine violins you have dealt with.

We all heard about the Gemunder you got hosed on, but what else have you done?

I suspect you are all talk, but let's see.

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i was selling a great 1895 georg gemunder, perhaps the greatest american violin maker of the 19th century(with visible cracks, repaired) for 6000 and it didnt sell on ebay
Maybe because your listing had a big red flag.
We've had this violin professionally appraised by one of the top appraiser/makers in the Los Angeles area, but he refuses to let me use his name or put anything in writing, because as he says, "I'm not going to let you use my name to sell your violins." However, his appraisals are very conservative and if he says something is real you can pretty much bank on it.
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Ahhh... just found a listing on my laptop. I have a note that George Sr. suffered a stroke in 1889, which jives with my memory. Production was passed to August, George II and other members of the family at that time, I believe, and the firm changed it's name the following year (Gemunder & Sons)... So, even with careful checking with your expert, if my notes are correct (which I believe they are), it may be that you have the wrong George listed and the maker has no direct link to the Vuillaume shop, Lyndon.

Honestly, this is the kind of stuff I let blow by me on Ebay... and I don't think poorly of you for listing what you believed to be true, Lyndon, but it's simply "that easy" to get on the wrong side of the Ebay police (or crossing guards).

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According to this post, he stopped making in 1889 when he had a stroke. He died in 1899, and that may be the source of the confusion. this listing

Your link didn't work, but yes, that agrees with my notes. I believe a copy newspaper article published upon his death in 1899 is available online (I recall finding it once).

BTW: I credit those "extra spiral" scrolls with other members of the Gemunder family as well.

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Ahhh... just found a listing on my laptop. I have a note that George Sr. suffered a stroke in 1889, which jives with my memory. Production was passed to August, George II and other members of the family at that time, I believe, and the firm changed it's name the following year (Gemunder & Sons)... So, even with careful checking with your expert, if my notes are correct (which I believe they are), it may be that you have the wrong George listed and the maker has no direct link to the Vuillaume shop, Lyndon.

Since he had, as far as I understand, his own shop, under his own name, producing violins which he himself labeled with his own label until his death, I fail to see the significance of the stroke.

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Since he had, as far as I understand, his own shop, under his own name, producing violins which he himself labeled with his own label until his death, I fail to see the significance of the stroke.

If I'm following this correctly, he stopped making when he had the stroke in 1889. Lyndon's "George Gemunder" violin was dated 1895, so George Gemunder, Sr., didn't make it even though it bears his shop label. Perhaps this is why Lyndon had trouble selling it.

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So what. Gemunder was in charge of his own shop, in his own name and labeled and sold the violins made under his direction as his own. Mr. Gemunder's judgement on his own violins is to be respected. If I worked for Hill's I would be making Hill violins. We have had this discussion before (in a thread about the Jos. fil A./Del G Cello).

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Since he had, as far as I understand, his own shop, under his own name, producing violins which he himself labeled with his own label until his death, I fail to see the significance of the stroke.

Jacob; George II, was a maker who could/did use the same label as his father, really without much cause to draw attention to the change in authorship. While similar, the style of instruments labeled "George Gemunder" did suffer a notable change after the stroke and retirement from the bench of George Sr. It is my understanding, that his involvement in the shop and business was rather limited after the stroke, BTW.

If you don't feel it's significant, that's OK by me... but many family members have passed the baton to other family members while employing the "old" label or bow stamp, and many do find this significant... significant enough to apply the history to value and attribution.

My point was that if one tries hard enough, it's not too difficult to find fault with a sale listing, even one of Lyndon's.

As I mentioned, I let this stuff blow by on Ebay. It really doesn't affect me, and most things work out in time. I would not, personally, sell a violin from the family labeled after 1889 as a George Sr., however.

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Jacob; George II, was a maker who could/did use the same label as his father, really without much cause to draw attention to the change in authorship. While similar, the style of instruments labeled "George Gemunder" did suffer a notable change after the stroke and retirement from the bench of George Sr. It is my understanding, that his involvement in the shop and business was rather limited after the stroke, BTW.

If you don't feel it's significant, that's OK by me... but many family members have passed the baton to other family members while employing the "old" label or bow stamp, and many do find this significant... significant enough to apply the history to value and attribution.

My point was that if one tries hard enough, it's not too difficult to find fault with a sale listing, even one of Lyndon's.

As I mentioned, I let this stuff blow by on Ebay. It really doesn't affect me, and most things work out in time. I would not, personally, sell a violin from the family labeled after 1889 as a George Sr., however.

Certainly one can find fault with Lyndons listing, I told him he should clean the cracks out better for instance. On this point however, one would be in danger of usurping god-like properties should Gemunder himself have presented and marketed it as a George Gemunder.

I share you're distain of ebay

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Hey Lyndon,

here's an idea:

Instead of whinning about ebay auctions and how unfair and unjust it is that P Hound gets any business and you don't and on and on and on and on,

why don't you SHOW us some examples of the fine and accurate violins YOU have for sale, or have sold?

I assume, you being the expert you are, that you have a photo record of every violin that has passed through your hands.

That would go along way towards establishing the credit and recognition you so desperately want and feel you deserve.

Rather then piss all over everyone elses merchandise, and call into question their integrity, reaffirm yours.

You have strong opinions and are not shy about sharing them so lets see some of the fine violins you have dealt with.

We all heard about the Gemunder you got hosed on, but what else have you done?

I suspect you are all talk, but let's see.

As a newbie to all this and someone who is looking for a used instrument right now I find Lyndon's posts very helpfull. Regardless of what you guys think of Lyndon's posts they still opens my eyes up to this kind of stuff and I'm gratefull for that.

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...one would be in danger of usurping god-like properties...

Jacob, I like that! :)

Patroclus: It's the level of the crusade I have trouble with. Good information can tend to get lost if there's too much turbulence surrounding it or an agenda (hidden or not) that overpowers it.

Glad you find Lyndon's input helpful.

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if you had actually read the description in my gemunder ad listing, linked above, i clearly stated this violin was made only four years before the makers death at the age of 79, that he had a probably only a supervisory role in its making, not hands on, and that much of the work was probably done by his apprentices or son george jr. who was a noted builder in his own right. the idea that august gemunder had anything to do with it or took over georges shops is a preposterous idea, as george and august had had a nasty falling out decades ago and wouldnt have anything to do with each other, the idea that my appraisal is bogus is ludicrous as it was the appraiser himself was the one that finally bought it for 5000 and i think youll have to all agree getting 5000 for a violin in that condition from a dealer is not so bad, as the dealer cant sell it at all with those visible cracks etc. and has to put a huge restoration job into it.

from my research there is no agreement about when or even if george stopped making, your one source says he had a stroke, other sources even say he was blind when this violin was made, as there was no agreement on the sources, i think i covered it well in the statements made above, by the way, one of my biggest customers had a stroke recently and it hasnt affected his mind, at all, everyone knows in these bigger shops the boss rarely does all the work, so whats the point; is it my gemunder you dont like, or really me that you have a problem with.

jefferey your fully right both george and august used the triple turn scroll but as i honestly mention in the description the triple scrolls are considered less desirable, whereas the work on the violins seems to be the same, but jefferey i have to respectfully disagree, if an old man, barely able to work anymore commissions a violin pays someone to buy the wood, carefully directs and supervises his top employees and children to make it, corrects them when there wrong or not up to his standards, uses the same secret oil varnish he developed and used all his life, and feels confident to put his label in it, how is that not a george sr gemunder violin. i could say the same thing about really late vuillaumes or stradivaris

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Hi Lyndon ,not wanting to start an argument and as you know i dont know alot about American violins, do you mind if i post a photo of another Gemunder but with a different scroll (the photo has your photos as well for comparison),not 3 turns but two and 1/2 turns .It is also cut in a distinctive way different than yours.

also the blocks are finished different inside, though i have to admit that the body looks a good match. :)

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Hey Lyndon,

here's an idea:

Instead of whinning about ebay auctions and how unfair and unjust it is that P Hound gets any business and you don't and on and on and on and on,

why don't you SHOW us some examples of the fine and accurate violins YOU have for sale, or have sold?

I assume, you being the expert you are, that you have a photo record of every violin that has passed through your hands.

That would go along way towards establishing the credit and recognition you so desperately want and feel you deserve.

Rather then piss all over everyone elses merchandise, and call into question their integrity, reaffirm yours.

You have strong opinions and are not shy about sharing them so lets see some of the fine violins you have dealt with.

We all heard about the Gemunder you got hosed on, but what else have you done?

I suspect you are all talk, but let's see.

[/quote)

argle i think youre dreaming if you think i crave attention and recognition, im just so used to being completely ignored that i "talk" really loud so people will at least get to hear my two cents worth, im a very small time shop and refuse to consider myself remotely qualified to be working on really expensive violins, like some of the top makers/restorers on this sight, in my part time apprenticeships i worked for three not so top makers, though there all in wenberg,

after 10 yrs in the buis, when i finally decided to actually learn to make a violin, i studied with ruth evans, who also taught jim brown who runs the great violin making workshop with michael darton in claremont, she loved my work and thought i was one of her best students, but half way through the apprenticeship i injured myself with the chisel really bad and dropped out, so im a violin school dropout, never even finished a violin

over the next few days ill try to post some picture of great violins i have had through my shop, or worked on, i dont think its right of me to be showing instruments i have for sale, as its against forum policy, but everyone seems to be doing it lately, ill stick to what i consider the greatest violins ive owned but if you want to skip ahead and see pictures of everything ive photographed, that ive worked on look at my photobucket account in the link below, unfortunately i havent titled most of the violins, the best on is on the bottom of page 34(click on left side 582 images)

http://s102.photobucket.com/home/taylorviolins/index

fiddle collector, if youre just trying to discredit my top appraisers appraisal of this violin, then im not interested, and heres why; the problem here is where did your gemunder pictures come from and how qualified was your appraiser etc, everyone knows that gemunder, george mostly used 2 turn scrolls, so if you really want to do something how about coming up with an example of a three turn gemunder scroll, and compare that, on the other hand if youre absolutely sure your pics are a genuine georg gemunder, by all means post them, but be sure you get the date, his styles changed and his later instruments look a little crude, actually like the work of an old man, just as they say with strad

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[/quote)

argle i think youre dreaming if you think i crave attention and recognition, im just so used to being completely ignored that i "talk" really loud so people will at least get to hear my two cents worth, im a very small time shop and refuse to consider myself remotely qualified to be working on really expensive violins, like some of the top makers/restorers on this sight, in my part time apprenticeships i worked for three not so top makers, though there all in wenberg,

after 10 yrs in the buis, when i finally decided to actually learn to make a violin, i studied with ruth evans, who also taught jim brown who runs the great violin making workshop with michael darton in claremont, she loved my work and thought i was one of her best students, but half way through the apprenticeship i injured myself with the chisel really bad and dropped out, so im a violin school dropout, never even finished a violin

over the next few days ill try to post some picture of great violins i have had through my shop, or worked on, i dont think its right of me to be showing instruments i have for sale, as its against forum policy, but everyone seems to be doing it lately, ill stick to what i consider the greatest violins ive owned but if you want to skip ahead and see pictures of everything ive photographed, that ive worked on look at my photobucket account in the link below, unfortunately i havent titled most of the violins, the best on is on the bottom of page 34(click on left side 582 images)

http://s102.photobucket.com/home/taylorviolins/index

Fair enough.

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Your link didn't work, but yes, that agrees with my notes. I believe a copy newspaper article published upon his death in 1899 is available online (I recall finding it once).

BTW: I credit those "extra spiral" scrolls with other members of the Gemunder family as well.

That was such a fine post, here it is for those whose link doesn't work:

Posted 05 June 2008 - 05:55 AM

The Gemunder family tree, per Wenberg, oldest to youngest, with some highlights taken from Wenberg:

Johann George Heinrich Gemunder, German violin maker

August Martin Ludwig Gemunder (1814-1895), son of Johann George Heinrich, learned from father, moved to US in 1846 and established shop in Springfield, MA. Moved to NY City 1859 to work with brother George (I). Founded August Gemunder & Sons in NY City in 1890.

George Gemunder (I) (1816-1899), son of Johann George Heinrich, learned from father, apprenticed to Vuillaume. Worked for Vuillaume in Paris, 1843 - 47. Came to US in 1847. Established shop in Boston, 1848. Moved to NY City c. 1852. Established own shop in Astoria, NY, 1874. Stopped making in 1889 when he suffered a stroke.

George Gemunder (II) (1859-1915) son of George (I), continued firm August Gemunder & Sons after George's (I) death. (Apparently, George (I), in his later years, was an official part of the August Gemunder & Sons firm, too.)

Hermann L Gemunder (1859 - ?) son of George (I). Made few instruments.

August Martin Gemunder (1862 - 1928) son of August Martin Ludwig.

Rudolf Fredrick Gemunder (1865 - 1916) second son of August Martin Ludwig.

Otto Gemunder (1871-1901) son of George (I).

Oscar Henry Gemunder (1872 -1946) 3rd son of August Martin Ludwig. Head of August Gemunder & Sons 1928 to 46.

From this family tree and from Wenberg's other comments, it looks like we could divide the output of the Gemunder family into two main parts:

Part 1: Before the creation of August Gemunder & Sons in 1890. August, Senior, and George, Senior, individually and maybe sometimes together, made violins. The sons were learning violin making in this period and maybe making some individually or helping their fathers make.

Part 2: After 1890. The sons of George, Sr, and August, Sr, made some violins as members of the firm August Gemunder & Sons, while the making days of George, Sr, and August, Sr, were essentially over.

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