Craig Tucker Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 I agree and while I tried to trim much of Craig's typically brief note I had to leave this much as I found it was pertinent and worth repeating. Oh, and by the way, thanks for noticing, Dean. I am somewhat well known for carving all of the excess verbiage off, making my messages brief and succinct.... a-hem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selim Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 I dispute your characterization of what I wrote as an attack. It may be considered criticism, but you have not refuted the facts as I presented them, nor have you been able to show my criticism as unreasonable. From the 1995 "McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission" Supreme Court decision: "...assure unfettered interchange of ideas for the bringing about of political and social changes desired by the people." "Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society." Jacob Saunders wrote in post #118 (emphasis mine): Does that ring any bells for you? Flyboy, I feel and sense, every one is looking for this thread cool down and get out of the way the sooner the better. Apologies all.. Just curious what kind of retaliation could happen if your real name is known in this forum? Wondering if there is any thing I need to know. This is a group of artists, musicians, scientists,, well, some might be a little eccentric in some degree, like myself.., you may agree or not but still civil, educated, mature people with great passion to stringed instruments. The worst of worst that could happen, they would skip your posts, or may not be showing support in cases like the subject in this thread, or wood dealer does not even respond your emails, etc.., etc.., so what? Sorry I skipped your response to my previous post, because your response was out of context. There is no mob here, it is just some support to the buyer from some people who has no self interest in any of the parties. However, I loved the wording, and power in the language in quotes you referred in your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean_Lapinel Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Oh, and by the way, thanks for noticing, Dean. I am somewhat well known for carving all of the excess verbiage off, making my messages brief and succinct.... a-hem! Well I didn't want to carve any of it but forum protocol ... David is efficient in his word choice. I need to work on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Flyboy, This is a group of artists, musicians, scientists,, well, some might be a little eccentric in some degree, like myself.., you may agree or not but still civil, educated, mature people with great passion to stringed instruments. The worst of worst that could happen, they would skip your posts, or may not be showing support in cases like the subject in this thread, or wood dealer does not even respond your emails, etc.., etc.., so what? Sorry I skipped your response to my previous post, because your response was out of context. There is no mob here, it is just some support to the buyer from some people who has no self interest in any of the parties. However, I loved the wording, and power in the language in quotes you referred in your post. I'd be happy to answer your questions regarding the merits of anonymity (or lack thereof) & retaliation in a separate thread. I think that issue deserves a thread of its own. As far as I'm concerned, this thread has been a prime example of unjustified mob behavior. In fact I'd go as far to say a lot of the responders are likely motivated by self-interest. I also notice you no longer include the word "responsible" in "civil, educated, mature with great passion..." 1. How many raw wood dealers participate on the "Pegbox" compared to consumers of wood, whether they be hobbyist or professional violin makers? 2. Based on Mr. Molnar's initial post, did he make a good-faith attempt to resolve his issues with SKS or US Customs, prior to flying off the handle, and outing SKS publicly here? Exactly in what way was Ondrej@Tonewood.sk's initial email response to Mr. Molnar deficient or unhelpful? 3. In this particular incident, before accusing someone of bad or improper business practice, you better make sure the facts & the law are on your side. Apparently there are some participants here who do not know there's a difference responsibility vs. professional courtesy, and think WILLFUL ignorance of the law is justified. Adding insult to injury, they have a sense of entitlement! 4. Which posts had the more informed views and grounded in reality, the ones that state "permit required/ultimate responsibility rests with the importer," or those who advocated the "Mercedes-Benz/customer is always right" defense?" I could go on and on about how absurd this thread has been. Incidentally, the technology is now sufficiently cheap enough that any car manufacturer can put a dynamic speed governor in your car, coupled with GPS and GIS (Geographical Information System). I don't think any of us would want to live in a world like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 ...*yawn* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 i have a suggestion how about ondrej wrapping the package in an american flag, how could customs then go and burn that, you anti ondrej yahoos like dean and ct would have polar opposite opinions if they had sent the package to ondrej and slovakian customs had burned the package, sometimes its hard to take the blinders off for some americans, hence the tone of this discussion...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 And I would suggest that perhaps there are other, more appropriate forums, for discussions such as this. This one has long past the ridiculous point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 well it makes me feel good, ct, to know that your position is a right wing one, because that makes a lot of sense to me, but IMO capatilism sucks bucks and gives them to your super wealthy friends who forgot you long ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeyerFittings Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 well it makes me feel good, ct, to know that your position is a right wing one, because that makes a lot of sense to me, but IMO capatilism sucks bucks and gives them to your super wealthy friends who forgot you long ago ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 I just saw this. I don't know how to link, so you will have to imagine the picture..... let's eat grandma! let's eat, grandma! Punctuation saves lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 And again. This one has long past the ridiculous point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, this thread has been a prime example of unjustified mob behavior.... ....Apparently there are some participants here who do not know there's a difference responsibility vs. professional courtesy, and think WILLFUL ignorance of the law is justified. Adding insult to injury, they have a sense of entitlement! ...Which posts had the more informed views and grounded in reality, the ones that state "permit required/ultimate responsibility rests with the importer," or those who advocated the "Mercedes-Benz/customer is always right" defense?" What’s your point? I think you may be overlooking most of the salient issues. Something has apparently changed about the law, or enforcement of the law. Mike brought this to our attention, which I'm grateful for, and he has mentioned that SVS is giving him further assistance with it. Many of us only rarely import or export, so it's not the most efficient use of our time to stay up on all the legal requirements, any more than I can afford to keep up with everything having to do with income tax law. I try to deal with those who are proficient in these matters, with the hope that they will walk me through it correctly, even though I'm still ultimately legally responsible. Regarding your Mercedes analogy: While there may be no legal requirement to do so, I would hope that the dealer would show me how to operate the release for the gas cap door before I leave the lot with my new purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 It seems as though this thread has deteriorated to a Monty Python like sketch. Argument Clinic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Regarding your Mercedes analogy: While there may be no legal requirement to do so, I would hope that the dealer would show me how to operate the release for the gas cap door before I leave the lot with my new purchase. Not to mention that there are speed limit signs posted all over the place. The vendors selling to US customers could post info on their site. I ordered an instrument from a Chinese vendor recently on Ebay and guess what they wrote in the description. "I can't guarantee anything when shipping to certain countries" or something to that effect. Besides Flyboy's Mercedes analogy was completely usless for this situation and made little if any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 It seems as though this thread has deteriorated to a Monty Python like sketch. Argument Clinic thanks for the laugh.....I needed that right now ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 thanks for the laugh.....I needed that right now ..... My pleasure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COB3 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Lyndon, while I sympathize with your condition, you are way off base attacking Craig that way. I didn't catch your point about the capitalism thing until you explained it-- I had no idea what your point was. Now he's slimy because he corrected his spelling? There are a whole bunch of guys on here who aren't great at spelling, and a whole bunch more who are sloppy typists, as well. Spelling is not a moral issue, and while I have only been on here for a few years, I have never yet seen Craig spin off into calling other MN members vile names, and casting aspersions on their morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
difrangia Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Tryin' as hard as I can; just can't seem to gain much in the way of knowledge or inspiration re. string instruments from this thread after about post #10 or so. s. difrangia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 i think i know craig well enough to know that the rediculous spelling was no accident, ive never seen evidence of an inability to spell in his posts, basically as i see it he was calling me a communist for my comments on americans, and i responded, not really on topic, but neither is infering someones a communist from my original comment, and no i dont have a condition any more than you have a condition cob3, weve got along so far lets try to keep it that way cob as to ct never calling people vile names, now it seems hes calling my post insanity, i call that name calling, how would you like it if ct called you insane, i find it really annoying and think i deserve an apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colledge Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 This thread was created at the exact time that I had an expensive shipment already shipped and entering customs from this exact company. It made me very nervous and I've followed it hoping for some resolution that we can learn from. I paid a broker, and filled out some forms and this didn't happen to me. I have my wood. I bought only maple and spruce. So I'm glad they are resolving things from their end, but I'm still left wondering why it happened, the same way I'm wondering why the government raided Gibson and not Taylor. Did we ever find out why they destroyed it and didn't contact Michael first? That seems so weird to me. Forgive me if I missed a post that explains this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Sooo,I think we've run this thread into the ground,Sooooo, Hows the weather down there? We had a beautiful Day! the RED maple leaves are in full color. Here in our COMMUNity folks are getting ready for winter.....what is the temp where you live? I'm still amazed that folks can communicate around the world......and about so many things .... My dad taught me not to Assume anything, as you always make an ass out of you and me. He also taught me that if you read the dictionary ,you'll never have to read another book ....no wait that was grandpa,,,,great grandma always said "paper never refused ink" still trying to figure that one.....OH and don't forget that an ex is a has been and spert is a drip under pressure....that one got me kicked out of high school algebra class once..... yippee! or is it yuppie? OR an oldie but goodie, how about the guy who was refused the grant to bring a collection of Peruvian textiles when he performed spell checked WRONG and printed testicles?....ALWAYS check the spell check! Hows that for insane? Michael with all due respeCT, sorry about the wood,I hope you can COBB something together that will work.please do post more here as I am very interested in getting wood from the same source ,Just don't have money to burn like some of us......CT most of us spell YUOR-your or are you speaking some hibbarish jibbarish code?????? Go figure.happy unbirthday to all and to all a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 I paid a broker, and filled out some forms and this didn't happen to me. If you don't mind, please talk a bit about the broker, are there pro's who help the deals go smooth ? that would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Sooo,I think we've run this thread into the ground,Sooooo, Hows the weather down there? We had a beautiful Day! the RED maple leaves are in full color. Here in our COMMUNity folks are getting ready for winter.....what is the temp where you live? I'm still amazed that folks can communicate around the world......and about so many things .... My dad taught me not to Assume anything, as you always make an ass out of you and me. He also taught me that if you read the dictionary ,you'll never have to read another book ....no wait that was grandpa,,,,great grandma always said "paper never refused ink" still trying to figure that one.....OH and don't forget that an ex is a has been and spert is a drip under pressure....that one got me kicked out of high school algebra class once..... yippee! or is it yuppie? OR an oldie but goodie, how about the guy who was refused the grant to bring a collection of Peruvian textiles when he performed spell checked WRONG and printed testicles?....ALWAYS check the spell check! Hows that for insane? Michael with all due respeCT, sorry about the wood,I hope you can COBB something together that will work.please do post more here as I am very interested in getting wood from the same source ,Just don't have money to burn like some of us......CT most of us spell YUOR-your or are you speaking some hibbarish jibbarish code?????? Go figure.happy unbirthday to all and to all a good day. james or michael, this is really weird, i sware to god, i just got a pm email from you saying; you think im "slipping" maybe i should get some help, some of my posts arent making sense, you have a brother??? with mental illness, i dare say your post is a bit more "out there" than mine, although i know you are joking well i got news for you, im not crazy and danged proud of it and happy that with medication i keep my crazy side in remission, doesnt make me like everyone else, though, sorry to bring personal politics in to this fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 james or michael, this is really weird, i sware to god, i just got a pm email from you saying; you think im "slipping" maybe i should get some help, some of my posts arent making sense, you have a brother??? with mental illness, i dare say your post is a bit more "out there" than mine, although i know you are joking well i got news for you, im not crazy and danged proud of it and happy that with medication i keep my crazy side in remission, doesnt make me like everyone else, though, sorry to bring personal politics in to this fire yes Lyndon I did PM you I do have a Brother with mental illness, and I know from first hand experience how hard it can be to see when things are going "south" I think Crazy is a cruel and unfortunate label and would never define any one as such.I was hoping that I could say to you what I said so that you could have some privacy. My last post was merely an attempt at humor and a bit of gravity,something to divert some of the name calling and innuendo that I saw happening .... James Michael Jones Is my full name...I never really liked Jim Jones....three guess' why....friends call me Mike or Michael officers call me James, My kids know a rapper Mike Jones and in the blacksmith shop they called me Jonsey take your pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 It seems as though this thread has deteriorated to a Monty Python like sketch. Argument Clinic I agree... but all good sketches have an end. Michael; Thank you for making us aware of the shipment problem. When ordering materials requiring import, many of us cruse on automatic, doing things as we've done in the past, until a situation "bites" us. I'll use this as a wake-up call. Hoping that the end of this thread will allow the board to calm down a bit. Might be good to remember that any "freedom of speech" that is perceived by both posters who choose to remain anonymous and posters who do not is still subject to the rules and guidelines of the board, OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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