Buyer Beware - Ordering Slovakian Maple

[scordatura]

Let's get real here. The seller has the knowledge of the pitfalls of shipping overseas. Why? It is their business. Sooner or later the shipper would have had a problem. Someone who makes an order of wood from a foreign seller would not know unless they have had a problem in the past or have heard of a problem from someone else. Do you expect the average the small time buyer to research the customs pratices before they purchase? That is completely absurd. Clearly people are ordering oversees because of the price savings. Why else would someone deal with the problems of lengthy and problematic shipping, exhange rates and fees, lack of recourse with the seller, returns, etc.

Some that have posted in this thread have had a problem with the seller's customer service. The best result of this thread would be an awareness of the seller that there are implications of future business with existing customers. The world is constantly getting smaller. Gone are the days when news takes weeks, months or years to get around.

One of the best aspects of this forum is the sharing of information. We may not always agree but the fact that we can communicate about such topics is a good thing. What have we learned here? Unless you want to throw the dice to save money on wood, order from someone else or even better order domestically. Let the domestic reseller deal with the pitfalls.

[jezzupe]

Ok , so how many people here, say going back to 2000, on small "regular" orders that an individual lutier, either professional or hobbyist.

How many of you have ordered wood from foreign sources and had it shipped to you?

when you did so in the past, was a permit required, was this "common" knowledge?

or did you just see a banner ad, check it out, order some wood, get it delivered, end of story.

I have a feeling the latter is the more common.

[Dean_Lapinel]

Now it's interesting that you bring up "response of responsible members of a civil, democratic society."

In this particular incident, I see Mr. Molnar's ignorance as anything but responsible. It's an abdication of responsibility of a citizen.

Despite being bug-squashed by a clue-by-four from US Customs with a "mail interception notice," as far as I can tell he made no attempt to research the issue himself prior to going public here. Had he taken a few minutes to look up the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) cited in the Customs notice, it would have been readily apparent to him what was required, and the very good and valid reasons why permits are necessary. The possibility of introducing invasive species or infestations should not be taken for granted.

Those of you supporting "the customer is always right" philosophy in this particular incident are going to have to explain how it's only fair to expect a foreigner to be more informed of the laws of the US than Mr. Molnar. Yes, I agree it might be good business practice for SKS, but try to explain how Mr. Molnar's ignorance is not an abdication of responsibility of a citizen in "civil, democratic society."

Furthermore, if you shop at a thrift store, it's only fair that you shouldn't expect receive the same level of service that you would get at Nordstroms. I won't even bother mentioning the needless waste of good wood.

For those of you who might not know, US has required permits for wood importation since at least 1999 (and possibly earlier, my recollection fails me atm).

I read your note several times and I don't find a valid point. It appears you ignored the well stated posts that rationally point to the exporters responsibility to inform his or her client about shipping.

You really throw me off with the "thrift store" analogy. Buying from Europe is remarkably more expensive but gives one the additional choice of a desirable look in tonewood backs and or reliable vendor (proper choice and management of the spruce). I don't know of any "thrift stores" in the US either; the resellers of European woods are excellent (limited choice though) as are the sellers of domestic woods (have to like domestic woods).

I know that you meant the word ignorant in it's basic form but I'm certain you must know that there is a negative connotation associated with the word and used twice is especially inflammatory. I'm especially surprised that you have been on the forum so long yet you don't recognize Michael Molnar as one of the more dignified, intelligent and calm gentleman of this forum.

[Flyboy]

Let's get real here. The seller has the knowledge of the pitfalls of shipping overseas. Why? It is their business. Sooner or later the shipper would have had a problem. Someone who makes an order of wood from a foreign seller would not know unless they have had a problem in the past or have heard of a problem from someone else. Do you expect the average the small time buyer to research the customs pratices before they purchase? That is completely absurd. Clearly people are ordering oversees because of the price savings. Why else would someone deal with the problems of lengthy and problematic shipping, exhange rates and fees, lack of recourse with the seller, returns, etc.

Some that have posted in this thread have had a problem with the seller's customer service. The best result of this thread would be an awareness of the seller that there are implications of future business with existing customers. The world is constantly getting smaller. Gone are the days when news takes weeks, months or years to get around.

One of the best aspects of this forum is the sharing of information. We may not always agree but the fact that we can communicate about such topics is a good thing. What have we learned here? Unless you want to throw the dice to save money on wood, order from someone else or even better order domestically. Let the domestic reseller deal with the pitfalls.

Next time you're in traffic court contesting your speeding ticket, I'd like to see you use the following defense:

"Your Honor, since I drive a Mercedes-Benz (or whatever foreign vehicle maker), I was not informed by them (Mercedes-Benz) that I was not to exceed the unposted speed limit on this local street."

After all, Mercedes-Benz is in the business of making cars, and they should have done their utmost to "protect" you, their customer, from your own ignorance of local laws, right?

You going to blame Mercedes-Benz for letting you drive too fast?

[Michael_Molnar]

Update:

Ondrej at SKS is working earnestly with me to get this issue resolved. He is a good man.

I am applying for a Level 2 Account with the USDA.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

PS: Thanks for your kind remarks, Flyboy.

[JohnCockburn]

Update:

Ondrej at SKS is working earnestly with me to get this issue resolved. He is a good man.

I am applying for a Level 2 Account with the USDA.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

PS: Thanks for your kind remarks, Flyboy.

This is good to hear, Mike. Hope it all works out OK.

I have always found Ondrej to be a good chap whenever I have dealt with him over the past few years.

Drive safely

[David Burgess]

Furthermore, if you shop at a thrift store, it's only fair that you shouldn't expect receive the same level of service that you would get at Nordstroms.

When I've bought directly from European wood dealers, it was with the goal of being able to pick through and select from a huge inventory, not to save money. Some of these places are anything but cheap. What should I look for, as a clue that I was shopping at a wood "thrift store", and should expect a lower level of service?

[Flyboy]

Update:

Ondrej at SKS is working earnestly with me to get this issue resolved. He is a good man.

I am applying for a Level 2 Account with the USDA.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

PS: Thanks for your kind remarks, Flyboy.

It's good to hear you've come around to your senses. Since you started the rabble-rousing on this thread, perhaps you can now perform your civic duty and explain to Dean and others why the onus of obtaining permits and conformance to local laws is the RESPONSIBILITY of the importer, not the exporter.

Somehow there are people who still believe in fairy tales, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Flyboy]

When I've bought directly from European wood dealers, it was with the goal of being able to pick through and select from a huge inventory, not to save money. Some of these places are anything but cheap. What should I look for, as a clue that I was shopping at a wood "thrift store", and should expect a lower level of service?

If you aren't buying from an importer, expect to do your homework. Or as Michael Doran said on post #90:

...if you don't want to deal with the hassle of importing, buy from importers here in the US.

[David Burgess]

It's good to hear you've come around to your senses. Since you started the rabble-rousing on this thread...

Mike's "rabble-rousing" has been a service to us all, and appears to have even resulted in better cooperation from the exporter, who was made aware of this thread.

Perhaps you already knew about the issue, but it was he who gave it exposure by starting the thread.

[jezzupe]

If you aren't buying from an importer, expect to do your homework. Or as Michael Doran said on post #90:

Based on this "progressive" ideology of "saving ourselves from ourselves" I would then postulate that ANY website, including this one, google ads,yahoo,ebay etc SHOULD THEN KNOW that that must!!! clearly state that ordering wood from foreign sources requires a permit. I do not want to be "ad tempted" only to find I have broken the "law".

Basically then the way I see it, If I am visiting a web site, see an ad that is a foreign company offering wood or wood products, it "the banner" damn well better have terms of use posted, not only that it should now fall on the owner of the website that the banner is being advertised on to ensure that the add that the website is running has all legal warnings posted. So now, the way I see it if I ordered wood from SKS because I saw the add here, And did not get my wood because of a permit that was "required" that I was either ignorant to, not told about etc. I pretty much now blame the people, in this case here, who are running the add.

This "ignorance is no excuse CRAP" is a joke.

I do not want infesting wood coming here, I do not want "illegal/rare" wood to become extinct, but frankly I do see the enforcement and PERMIT FEES as the right way to do it

Nor do I see Websites/companies who advertise foreign wood suppliers of their sites as not culpable in my new found problem of trying to get my wood. IF I WAS NOT TOLD I NEED A PERMIT TO PURCHASE AND RECIEVE MY WOOD.

To make it seem as if "pff' everyone knows that, is a joke, to proclaim, "well, you need a permit, everyone knows that" is very far fetched at best. This obviously something that is now being "stepped up" and enforced. If it was not, I like to think that this subject would have come up long ago.

The ideology of "nanny" governance which is supported by fees, lic, permits kills commerce. In my opinion.

[allezlesbleus]

Lordy, this is getting circular...

ALB

[jezzupe]

Lordy, this is getting circular...

ALB

I really just think its discussing all the facets, I would like to know

1. Do average makers {not people who do not import mass amounts of stuff on a regular basis} know this is common knowledge? I don't think so. If David Burgess did a "boy glad I got mine", I think that implies, based on his "finger on the pulse" knowledge of the violin world, that it is not....I know I did not know about a permit

I think the "everyone knows that or should" is a bunch of crap

2. If American based companies are advertising these foreign sites on their web sites, what is their level of responsibility in this "ordeal" If they did not warn me, how would I know?

I would not have even known about the site, until I saw it advertised, advertisement laws are quite clear in this country related to disclosure. If obtaining a permit is part of the process needed to receive your goods. I now shift liability over to the website that told me about the company, but did not tell me the terms.

It should now be the American based advertiser who is responsible for the content of their foreign client.

[Dean_Lapinel]

Well, we do many things without paying attention that there are many laws regarding wood import, one of the requirements is a "phitosanitary certificate" without this document wood cannot be imported. Ok, we receive wood in a regular basis without it but the law in most countries ask for that to avoid infestation by exotic woodworms, for instance.

Once I had wood sent back because it lacked the phitosanitary certificate.

So Manfio, an attorney notes that this is a common law in most countries. Don't you think that an exporter of goods should know this as well?

Last comment. It really irks me when an attacking party hides behind anonymity. Most who like to maintain anonymity refrain from scolding other members and this is fine with me. When you stick you're head up like this Flyboy I'd like to know who you are so I can better understand your behavior and thought process.

[bmccarthy]

quote jezzupe...... It should now be the American based advertiser who is responsible for the content of their foreign client.

Just a second.... If what I´m hearing is correct. . . . You´re saying (before you edited your origional post )that the American based advertiser (whoever the hell he is) is responsible for Mikes tonewood being burnt/crushed/mulched/vapourized/eaten or whatever happend to it and not the US Dpt of Agriculture, Tonewood SKS or Mike. ???? Now I´m COMPLETELY CONFUSED Sorry but I can´t agree with you on that one.

[jezzupe]

"Just a second.... If I´m what I´m hearing is correct. . . . You´re saying that the American based advrtiser (whoever the hell he is) is responsible for Mikes tonewood being burnt/crushed/mulshed/vapourized/eaten or whatever happend to it and not the US Dpt of Agriculture, Tonewood SKS or Mike. ???? Now I´m COMPLETELY CONFUSED Sorry but I can´t agree with you on that one."

Actually no I'm not, I'm demonstrating how an "issue" like this can go down many roads where "people" are looking for resolve and culpability. Someone has a problem that they feel was not generated by them, they go looking for someone to blame.

Now I do not think what I posted is they way it should be, however I can see someone looking for "answers" going down that path...

" hey man I would have never even ordered from them if I knew I had to do all this just to buy a piece of wood"

"hey man I never heard of them before, I just saw their add on Maestronet, and ordered some wood, Someone should have told me, Maestronet should have known"

I don't make human behavior, I just study it.

[scordatura]

Next time you're in traffic court contesting your speeding ticket, I'd like to see you use the following defense:

"Your Honor, since I drive a Mercedes-Benz (or whatever foreign vehicle maker), I was not informed by them (Mercedes-Benz) that I was not to exceed the unposted speed limit on this local street."

After all, Mercedes-Benz is in the business of making cars, and they should have done their utmost to "protect" you, their customer, from your own ignorance of local laws, right?

You going to blame Mercedes-Benz for letting you drive too fast?

Flyboy, it sounds like you need to descend to a lower altitude. Your oxygen supply is not working

[scordatura]

Update:

Ondrej at SKS is working earnestly with me to get this issue resolved. He is a good man.

I am applying for a Level 2 Account with the USDA.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

PS: Thanks for your kind remarks, Flyboy.

Mike, I am glad to hear that this is turning around for you. From your posts here I can tell you are an intelligent, fair minded and sensable person. That kind of behavior should be rewarded.

Needless to say, there are some interesting personalities that swim in the MN waters!

[jezzupe]

All kinds

[Don Noon]

[Michael_Molnar]

You got that right, Don.

[jezzupe]

How did you know I had 3 eyes?

[Flyboy]

Last comment. It really irks me when an attacking party hides behind anonymity. Most who like to maintain anonymity refrain from scolding other members and this is fine with me. When you stick you're head up like this Flyboy I'd like to know who you are so I can better understand your behavior and thought process.

I dispute your characterization of what I wrote as an attack. It may be considered criticism, but you have not refuted the facts as I presented them, nor have you been able to show my criticism as unreasonable.

From the 1995 "McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission" Supreme Court decision:

"...assure unfettered interchange of ideas for the bringing about of political and social changes desired by the people."

"Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society."

Jacob Saunders wrote in post #118 (emphasis mine):

Unjust mobbing doesn't make a very good impression either.

Does that ring any bells for you?

[bmccarthy]

"Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society."

Powerful stuff Flyboy, totally agree with all of that.

[Craig Tucker]

Never mind.

No sense going around even further...