Buyer Beware - Ordering Slovakian Maple

[David Burgess]

SVS is relatively new compared to many others tonewood suppliers. Not a native English-speaking wood dealer, I believe it is challenging enough to be able to converse in English, not to mentioned understanding those tongue-twisting foreign rules and regulations.

He speaks excellent English, and lived in New York City for a while. The other dealer in Bratislava, violinmaple.com, speaks no English, but brings in a translator when needed.

[jacobsaunders]

In that sense my only real criticism of SKS is their inane description of the contents of the shipment. At the very least they should know under which tariff codes it may be possible to classify their exports,

It has been variously asserted that SKS failed to provide an appropriate tariff code. Could anybody point me to a scrap of evidence that they didn't? It is virtualy impossible to send a parcel to America without entering a tariff code here (they ALWAYS check) and Bratislava is just down the road, so I can hardly immagine that it is any different there.

The form states under "Reason for Disposition" 4. "Material not authorized entry". One could query the grammar, but a lack of a tariff code is not critisized.

[bmccarthy]

I´ve just sent Tonewoods SK a link to this thread. If it were my business I´d like to have the opportunity to defend myself and have my say here.

[Flyboy]

You can argue all day about who is responsible but it generally makes more business sense to at least try and make some ammends to the buyer, especially as i dont think it was a very large order. Whats a few piece of wood to a business like sVS who process thousands of pieces.

Perhaps you're right. SKS could just "pay" to make this problem go away.

But in this case I certainly don't feel "the customer is always right." It's not much of a stretch to imagine SKS may have to raise prices for everybody else to cover losses like this. I'd imagine you might feel slightly differently about someone else's ignorance if this is the case.

The economic consequences _could_ have been considerably worse had an infestation been introduced.

[David Burgess]

Perhaps you're right. SKS could just "pay" to make this problem go away.

But in this case I certainly don't feel "the customer is always right." It's not much of a stretch to imagine SKS may have to raise prices for everybody else to cover losses like this. I'd imagine you might feel slightly differently about someone else's ignorance if this is the case.

The economic consequences _could_ have been considerably worse had an infestation been introduced.

My business is fiddlemaking, and I try to protect my customers who don't have as much experience with it as I do. Most of them don't, and that stands to reason.

If one's business is exporting, I would hope that they would have a similar attitude. At least, those are the people I would most want to deal with.

The import restrictions may be something which is only recently being enforced, so I've got to cut the exporter some slack. Still, if my major business was exporting, I'd consider replacing a few neck blocks to be a low price to pay for the education.

[Dean_Lapinel]

My business is fiddlemaking, and I try to protect my customers who don't have as much experience with it as I do. Most of them don't, and that stands to reason.

If one's business is exporting, I would hope that they would have a similar attitude. At least, those are the people I would most want to deal with.

The import restrictions may be something which is only recently being enforced, so I've got to cut the exporter some slack. Still, if my major business was exporting, I'd consider replacing a few neck blocks to be a low price to pay for the education.

Exactly! That's what I tried to say but you were more efficient.

[lyndon]

mr saunders, your replacement ivory tourte frog is in the mail..........

[jacobsaunders]

mr saunders, your replacement ivory tourte frog is in the mail..........

If you have forgotten the replacement ivory tip, I will sue the s**t out of you!

[JohnCockburn]

108 replies. Storm in a teacup?

[David Burgess]

108 replies. Storm in a teacup?

Yes and no.

Define your teacup please, so I might do a more adequate job of responding.

[MeyerFittings]

Yes and no.

Definately!

[fiddlecollector]

108 replies. Storm in a teacup?

Not if your on the receiving end of this type of customs operation. I can understand the laws to prevent infestations of things but its the lack of publicity that personally irritates me annd the over complication of finding the correct info in order to do things correctly.

Until recently id never even heard of the Lacy act.Funny thing is i bought some wood from the US once and it had about 1/2 dozen large grubs in it.No idea what they were.

[Selim]

I ordered some maple scroll block from SKS Tonewoods in Bratislava, Slovakia. The shipment was intercepted and destroyed by US Dept of Agriculture. This never happened before.

Here is the official notice:

I asked Ondrej Sima to get the permit and send me the order or refund my money.

He claims that it is my problem. I have to get the permit, and he has no responsibility for shipments that leave his office. In other words, he does not guarantee delivery.

The question I have for MN'ers is who is responsible for the permit?

DO I have to get a permit for every order of European wood?

Here is the correspondence:

_______________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________

From: "TONEWOOD" <sima@***>

To: "Michael R. Molnar" <molnar@***>

Subject: Re: US Department of Agriculture Permit is Needed

Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:02:29 +0100

Dear Mike ,

I am very sorry to hear this.

Unfortunately ,our responsibility ends when the shipment leaves our warehouse

Import procedure and compliance with import requirements on your side is fully your responsibility.

Although we are at fully at your disposal all the time with any help / asistance / documentation you need for import we are not responsible for the shipment

I don't know when and what happend with the shipment on your side but I am sure before US authorities decide to "destroy" the shipment there must be communication between them and recipient requesting necessary documents.

If we were informed about this situation from your side we would certainly help you to solve it with supplying documents necessary in such situation.

I sugegst that you contact either your mail office or customs and get the exact information about the shipment becuae from the document you sent me I don't htink itw was destroyed and I think there is still a chance to get the shipment if you supply proper document.

I believe Phytosanitary certificate should be the document but you have to find out on your side the status of the shipment so that we don't waste time and money to getting this documents for you in vain

Looking forward to hear from you and hoping for the solution of the problem

Ondrej Sima

TONEWOOD

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael R. Molnar

To: TONEWOOD

Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:03 AM

Subject: US Department of Agriculture Permit is Needed

Ondrej,

The US Department of Agriculture destroyed your shipment to me because you do not have a permit.

See the attachment.

This is Invoice Number 040251-11 for 135 Eur.

Please get the permit and send my order again, or refund my money.

Good luck,

Mike Molnar

======

At 03:13 AM 8/22/2011, you wrote:

Dear Michael ,

thank you very much for your new order.

The total is 90 Eur + 45 Eur air mail shipping

Best regards

Ondrej

TONEWOOD

___________________________________________________

___________________________________________________

Years ago, I posted a similar issue with SVS Tonewood in the following link.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=318720&st=0&p=413029&hl=selim svs&fromsearch=1entry413029

They still keep two violin one-piece maple backs that are my paid commodity, with no legal right to do so.

I think, Office of State Attorney General is happy to hear such incidences.

I believe, sharing this kind of unfortunate experience is the responsibility of civil, educated consumer with awareness and ethics.

Sharing information will increase awareness and it will protect the others.

Today I have it in mine, tomorrow you may have the storm in your tea cup. No one is immune.

Here is what I would expect from the tone wood company,....put a big banner in the home page of web site saying

"Attention to US buyers, your purchase can be destroyed, because we are selling wood with no valid permission from US goverment."

Thanks for sharing Mr.Molnar.

You help to increase consumer awareness.

You do what a responsible consumer is supposed to do.

We, US tone wood buyers are more aware now.

[David Burgess]

Not if your on the receiving end of this type of customs operation. I can understand the laws to prevent infestations of things but its the lack of publicity that personally irritates me annd the over complication of finding the correct info in order to do things correctly.nd it had about 1/2 dozen large grubs in it.No idea what they were.

It irritates me too. Would it have been too much trouble for the government to send those of us who are in the importing data base an email outlining a change in rules? Never got anything like that.

[Michael_Molnar]

The violation on Mikes certificate is for infestation of wood boring insects ,etc... Does that mean all wood needs to have proof of some form of treatment?

No it's not for infestation. This is how rumors start. Please read the document: It is for a lack of permit, which I am working on.

Ondrej at SKS is doing his best to remedy this.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

[bmccarthy]

Mike,

As mentioned in a previous post, I contacted Tonewood Sk to inform them of this thread as I fealt strongly that they had a right to give their side of the story. They have replied to my email saying the following. . . . ¨Unfortunately this is extreme situation which never happened to us in 12 years of supplying tonewood to luthiers all over the world Anyway , we have decided to absord all loses in this case and malke completely new shipment to customer ¨ So it looks like they´re cooperating in a positive way.....at last. I have a feeling they wont let this happen again I hope your wood arrives safely this time and look forward to seeing the finished violin.

Brian

[violins88]

If I were SVS tonewoods, I would send another shipment, with proper paperwork, to Mike. And post a note here about it.

Bad publicity is 10 times more powerful than good publicity.

[jacobsaunders]

If I were SVS tonewoods, I would send another shipment, with proper paperwork, to Mike. And post a note here about it.

Bad publicity is 10 times more powerful than good publicity.

Unjust mobbing doesn't make a very good impression either.

[scordatura]

Unjust mobbing doesn't make a very good impression either.

OK. But would SVS even give a crap if it was just one customer? My experience is no...

[jacobsaunders]

OK. But would SVS even give a crap if it was just one customer? My experience is no...

They evidently give enough of a "crap" to send 135 euros worth of wood half way round the world, despite the paperwork.

[fiddlecollector]

No it's not for infestation. This is how rumors start. Please read the document: It is for a lack of permit, which I am working on.

Ondrej at SKS is doing his best to remedy this.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

Mike, i was refering to the code violation on your form,when i looked it up is was to do with whether or not it had been treated by either of their two recommended methods. To add to this ,i assume you would need the permit to prove it had been treated. I may be wrong but thats what i found on the US customs site.

[Flyboy]

Mike, i was refering to the code violation on your form,when i looked it up is was to do with whether or not it had been treated by either of their two recommended methods. To add to this ,i assume you would need the permit to prove it had been treated. I may be wrong but thats what i found on the US customs site.

Indeed. It's not difficult to discern the purpose of the the import permit is to 1) minimize the possibility of infestation or invasive species, by the importer specify the method of treatment, 2) establish trace-ability (should an infestation occur, so appropriate origin geography/species can be pinpointed).

Mike, nobody has asserted the wood from SKS was infested.

[Dean_Lapinel]

Unjust mobbing doesn't make a very good impression either.

On the contrary, the number of issues with the past actions of this company made me cancel an order with them (after a warning). The act of cancellation itself prompted a tirade of abusive language.

But... seeing that there is a resolution with Michael makes me happy for them and I hope that Ondrej has great success with this approach.

[Selim]

They evidently give enough of a "crap" to send 135 euros worth of wood half way round the world, despite the paperwork.

It is the right thing to do, although the "crap" took 120 etc,, replies.

I would like to call this, a reflexive response of the responsible members of a civil, democratic society.

A mob is based on loyalty which is simply involved in self interest, at the expense of secrificing objective thinking and judgement. I dont see it here.

I am happy too, for Mr.Molnar's losses have been covered.

[Flyboy]

It is the right thing to do, although the "crap" took 120 etc,, replies.

I would like to call this, a reflexive response of the responsible members of a civil, democratic society.

A mob is based on loyalty which is simply involved in self interest, at the expense of secrificing objective thinking and judgement. I dont see it here.

I am happy too, for Mr.Molnar's losses have been covered.

Now it's interesting that you bring up "response of responsible members of a civil, democratic society."

In this particular incident, I see Mr. Molnar's ignorance as anything but responsible. It's an abdication of responsibility of a citizen.

Despite being bug-squashed by a clue-by-four from US Customs with a "mail interception notice," as far as I can tell he made no attempt to research the issue himself prior to going public here. Had he taken a few minutes to look up the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) cited in the Customs notice, it would have been readily apparent to him what was required, and the very good and valid reasons why permits are necessary. The possibility of introducing invasive species or infestations should not be taken for granted.

Those of you supporting "the customer is always right" philosophy in this particular incident are going to have to explain how it's only fair to expect a foreigner to be more informed of the laws of the US than Mr. Molnar. Yes, I agree it might be good business practice for SKS, but try to explain how Mr. Molnar's ignorance is not an abdication of responsibility of a citizen in "civil, democratic society."

Furthermore, if you shop at a thrift store, it's only fair that you shouldn't expect receive the same level of service that you would get at Nordstroms. I won't even bother mentioning the needless waste of good wood.

For those of you who might not know, US has required permits for wood importation since at least 1999 (and possibly earlier, my recollection fails me atm).