Buyer Beware - Ordering Slovakian Maple

[Dimitri Musafia]

There is (unfortunately) also another issue that hasn't been yet touched upon, and that is the "discretionary" (quotes are purposeful) powers that the official who receives you incoming package and docs has in order to give you a hard time.

My business is simple, I export only one kind of item, contemporary violin cases made in my atelier, and I do my best to include all proper docs with each parcel. For example, to the U.S. that means: invoice in 5 copies, customs declaration sporting description and customs code (4202 92 5000) in triplicate, declaration that the goods in the shipment do not contain greenhouse effect gas fluorocarbons (Y926), dog or cat fur as by regulation no. 1523/2007 (GUCE L 343) (Y922), any animal parts protected by the Washington Treaty ratified in Italy with the law no. 874 of Dec. 19, 1975 (Y900), and that the goods are not among those listed by the CE regulation no. 1236/2005 as those which could be used to enforce the death penalty, torture or other cruel or unusual punishment (Y904-Y906). Just researching all that was a chore, believe me!

Is that enough? Usually, yes. But sometimes a shipment get stuck anyway, or customs inexplicably wants to charge my client 30% or 40% duty instead of the correct 4.2%. The reason why in these cases is that even people in customs can screw up - we're all human - and who's fault is that? (Respectfully submitted).

[propolis]

"even funnier when people order items that are shipped in large boxes of wood, well the boxes are not burned... "

Bureaucracy indeed gives us plenty of reasons to point and laugh. Sadly, phyto-sanitation, if that is the correct term, is not really a laughing matter. Insects and other pests can only travel so far on their own. When they are given a boost on a semi-trailer or articulated lorry, or in a shipping container, we humans give them a global reach. The Asian Long-horned Beetle reached the US in packing material such as wooden crates and pallets or skids. Tens of thousands of urban trees have been lost as a result, with more still in danger. That is a fairly recent glaring example of a situation that was noticed and pointed out to the agencies responsible for its prevention, without timely effective remedies being applied. To the extent that a bureaucracy can feel shame, embarrassment over that very publicly visible deforestation may have prompted an elevated level of "protection."

Bureaucracy does not always respond sensibly. Richard Feynman was an amateur "locksmith," as well as being adept at the kind of "social engineering" that can get past mechanical security measures. Working on the Manhattan project, found that his colleagues were storing sensitive information in easily opened file cabinets. He brought this to the attention of the authorities... long story short, the bureaucratic response was "keep Feynman away from your file cabinet."

One difficulty in the regulation of musical instrument parts has to do with the industrial mindset being applied to a technology that was developed in the seventeenth century. The rules seem to be written as if a fingerboard could be "finished" apart from the instrument it will fit. What seems to be missing from the media accounts (sorry if this is topic leakage from the Gibson thread) is exposure of the mistaken idea that instrument parts are interchangeable like batteries, transistors, or nuts and bolts.

[Michael_Molnar]

I'm glad it didn't happen to me, with about $25,000 worth of wood shipped from Slovakia after I was there last time.

Y'know though, If a vendor frequently sells internationally, it wouldn't hurt to start compiling, and offering customers information on what they need to do to import successfully. Just kinda makes good business sense. When people have a "that's the customer's problem" attitude, I think it has a good chance of coming back to haunt them.

How well would a violin shop do, if all they cared about were their obligations under the law?

Coincidentally, David, I was thinking about your Slovakian trip and purchase. Glad you got in and out before the curtain fell.

I wanted to say exactly what you said in your second paragraph. Any serious/successful business person would put up an advisory for USA customers. I would give them all of the information they need to make purchasing with me simple.

Ignorance of the law is not excusable. Mea culpa. However, I am taking my business elsewhere, and warning my friends.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

[Michael_Molnar]

Michael! What shipping company was used? FedEx handle this most time perfect and contact both sender and receiver to fill out correct the lacey act.

Look here!

It was sent via regular postal system. See the documnet.

Thanks for the links and suggestions!

[Craig Tucker]

However, I am taking my business elsewhere, and warning my friends.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

Yes.

More power to you.

My further (and hopefully last) comment on this situation, now that all of the business theoreticians from all sides of the issue have weighed in, is this;

To me, the most interesting aspect of this discussion has been all of the somewhat naive and emotionally charged comments and proclamations about “what I would have done in the same situation” and other similar comments from many posters.

- well, this result is exactly what I was talking about in my *virtually impossible to locate* first reply (guffaw!) in this thread.

It seems to me that, making the leap from righteous indignation over the reaction of the “typical Spoiled American Consumer” to “What can I do to increase my customer base?” is simply too large a leap for many posters to even consider thinking about

Oh well..

The cost (in dollars) to this supplier, in this case, may well exceed any satisfaction they may have received from;

- dealing with a situation in which they may have perceived that they have won a battle with a single seemingly inconsequential customer, and,

- having shut down a large portion of the market from this one poorly executed maneuver, to a single customer who, in actuality is not inconsequential, but who has a loud and pervasive voice.

To anyone who thinks that situations shch as this this don’t really matter, welcome to the real world. The violin making community isn't all that large.

That the supplier (again, regardless of what his exact legal rights in the matter are) did not take steps immediately to remedy the situation and satisfy the customer (A suppliar from any country, relating to a customer from any country), and protect themselves from exactly this type of reaction - is an amazing thing to me.

I have been in business for myself since 1973, and my thinking on the matter is, that a good reputation is one of those things that you simply cannot buy, and it is a thing slow to build.

But you can earn it, simply by servicing your customers properly.

Of course, as we see from this story, the opposite can be true also - and a poor customer service reputation can be the result of your actions as a business man or woman.

Oh well - very often we are our own worst enemy.

[Craig Tucker]

That the supplier (again, regardless of what his exact legal rights in the matter are) did not take steps immediately to remedy the situation and satisfy the customer (A suppliar from any country, relating to a customer from any country), and protect themselves from exactly this type of reaction - is an amazing thing to me.

Yeah, I did get killed in the accident...

But what of it? I had the legal *right of way!*

[difrangia]

What I see as the bottom line in this and increasingly more in all facets of current life is that all of the raw materials that we use in this craft/art and all endeavors will be increasing in cost and decreasing in availability in an rapidly escalating manner. Over-regulation. This is not specific to one country or area. I am stocking up on all assets needed in my violin related endeavors and all other aspects of my daily life as resources permit.

Thinking about chopping down one of my pear trees for future pegs & fingerboards.

I'm not fatalistic; just realistic.

difrangia

[Craig Tucker]

Thinking about chopping down one of my pear trees for future pegs & fingerboards.

I'm not fatalistic; just realistic.

difrangia

Yes, increasingly it is raw materials that are becoming scarce.

Here, in the midst of 'pecan country' where the (vast) orchards offer free material for the taking, every year after pruning season, I'm thinking of a future business opportunity myself.

[jezzupe]

[Craig Tucker]

I hope SVS Tonewood is aware of this thread, it would be fair to give them the possibility to defend themselves, or at least being informed about this.

Personally, I would not like to see my e-mail conversation with a customer published in a forum.... That's not really a gentleman's behavior. Or is it even illegal?

Bernhard

In any case, I am always careful not to send any communication over the internet - that I wouldn't want repeted - even in a private conversation - or that I wouldn't stand by, in an out-in-the-public situation.

Havn't you seen any of the crime TV shows, where the cell phone records, or emails, of facebook conversations hang the "perp" - It happens every d@mn time!?

"Privacy" is sort of Old School thinking...

ct

[MeyerFittings]

There is only one or two US domestic woods that are realistically dense enough for pegs. Desert Ironwood (olneya) is very heavy and brittle and usually smallish unless it is very old. Mountain mahogany is my favorite peg wood. It's perfect for pegs, looks like STAINED boxwood, gets prettier with use, and is not endangered. People have sent me many other wood over the years that the thought would be suitable for pegs, osage orange, persimmon, dogwood, etc. but none had the right characteristics or hardness. Perhaps in Hawaii there are some more obscure trees but I'll bet they are reasonable rare and protected.

Most of my ebony comes from friends who are bow makers who have such strict requirements for frog wood they sell me some of the rest. It's still vastly superior than what you see passing as ebony in most Indian or Chinese pegs (which make up most of the market these days). The bow makers are in the same pickle. Their ebony has to be aged for so long that they probably can't even remember when and where it came from, and certainly never had or lost the now required paper work. I've got a board that I bought at WoodCrafters thirty years ago and I'm not even sure what kind of ebony it is.

[Dimitri Musafia]

This just came out today in the LA Times regarding the Fed's raiding of the Gibson guitar factory looking for illegal wood:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gibson-guitar-20110928,0,5477567.story

[apartmentluthier]

Mountain mahogany is my favorite peg wood. It's perfect for pegs, looks like STAINED boxwood, gets prettier with use, and is not endangered.

Is there any supplier that has Mountain Mahogany available, or do you have the hoard all for yourself?

[jezzupe]

[Michael Doran]

I saw that Michael posted on another thread that his wood was destroyed because the shipper didn't have a permit.

First, I hope his wood has not been destroyed and I certainly would look into it.

Second, it is his responsibility, as the importer, to have the PPQ-585 permit to import the wood.

I think that SVS could have been more helpful, but really if you don't want to deal with the hassle of importing, buy from importers here in the US.

I still think it is a stretch to classify tonewood as an accessory, I think it is much closer to lumber than it is to a metronome. Maybe you can get away with that with violin wood because it is smaller than cello wood.

[Bryan Austin]

Does maple even fall under CITES?

And another thing did they ever try and notify you that the wood was going to be destroyed? Because destruction of property without due process is illegal.

[propolis]

I don't think this is about CITES. Does the Lacey act also cover the importation of biological pests? I suspect that the justification for destroying maple neck blocks is more about the supposed risk of bug infestation and not at all about endangered species. It has been mentioned elsewhere that baked or fumigated wood is not all that useful to instrument makers.

[Flyboy]

Does maple even fall under CITES?

And another thing did they ever try and notify you that the wood was going to be destroyed? Because destruction of property without due process is illegal.

This incident has nothing to do with CITES, or even the Lacey Act.

If you're importing wood into the US, pretty much the bottom line is you need a permit. The OP did not follow process.

Let's say you left a backpack unattended somewhere. The authorities would certainly not give you proper notice before blowing it up. This incident falls under the same category, and it has the potential to cause considerable more damage than some "device" in a backpack.

[fiddlecollector]

I don't think this is about CITES. Does the Lacey act also cover the importation of biological pests? I suspect that the justification for destroying maple neck blocks is more about the supposed risk of bug infestation and not at all about endangered species. It has been mentioned elsewhere that baked or fumigated wood is not all that useful to instrument makers.

I think i mentioned earlier that the violation listed on Mikes customs notification has to do with there being no proof of the wood being treated to kill any infestation. They recommended two methods as acceptable ,but cant remember what they were.So in other words the wood must have to have some sort of permit/vcertificate to confirm this treatment. If this is so then the seller should be responsible for this because how on earth would the buyer know if its been treated or how its been treated or if it hasnt had any treatment. How could the buyer fill out a form with any true facts if the seller hasnt provided the information.If this is a general requirement then the seller should notify customers of possible problems or at least make some sort of effort to,i.e warnings on their site to that effect of possible import problems.

You can argue all day about who is responsible but it generally makes more business sense to at least try and make some ammends to the buyer, especially as i dont think it was a very large order. Whats a few piece of wood to a business like sVS who process thousands of pieces.

[yapkv]

I live in Malaysia.

Half a year ago I ordered some posters from the Strad. I waited for 3 months but the posters just didn't arrive my postbox. I emailed the Strad and they said they will send me the posters again, provided that I use a trackable post. The postage price I need to pay, is, the same as what I paid for the posters+postage I ordered earlier (about 39 pounds).

Should I ask TheStrad to refund me since I didn't receive my poster at all? Whose responsibility would it be in my case?

SVS is relatively new compared to many others tonewood suppliers. Not a native English-speaking wood dealer, I believe it is challenging enough to be able to converse in English, not to mentioned understanding those tongue-twisting foreign rules and regulations. I believe they are trying hard to improve their service too. As far as import law is concerned, it is the importer's responsibility to get the required documentation. There's a good reason why your gov want to enforce on such a strict rule, even on firewood:-

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2008_news_releases/nov_2008/11202008_8.xml

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2009_news_releases/july_2009/07152009_6.xml

[Bryan Austin]

This incident has nothing to do with CITES, or even the Lacey Act.

If you're importing wood into the US, pretty much the bottom line is you need a permit. The OP did not follow process.

Let's say you left a backpack unattended somewhere. The authorities would certainly not give you proper notice before blowing it up. This incident falls under the same category, and it has the potential to cause considerable more damage than some "device" in a backpack.

ok so is it a regulated species?

And if its not they dont have any right to destroy it

[Jacob]

I still think it is a stretch to classify tonewood as an accessory...

It must be nice to have the luxury to "think" about this. When I go into the ring with a government agency I don't "think", I just use their rules to make sure I win. Intellectual or philosophical prowess will get me nowhere. After six decades at it I know a brick wall is harder than my head.

Take note that I didn't dream up this notion of classifying tonewood under tariff code 9209.92.00 - I took my cue from a major European supplier.

In that sense my only real criticism of SKS is their inane description of the contents of the shipment. At the very least they should know under which tariff codes it may be possible to classify their exports, and choose the least troublesome one for everybody's sake. That is an absolute prerequisite for an exporter. A "wrong" customs declaration can be a death sentence for a parcel. That is the job of the exporter to know. This has nothing to do with the customs regulations of various countries, it is about a universally-applied system of classification. How the various articles are dealt with by the customs of different countries is certainly not something an exporter can be expected to know. Most of my European suppliers draw the purchaser's attention to the possible customs implications in the buyer's country.

Apparently, on one of the visits to Europe of the mummy of Rameses II, the entry documents into France (for exhibition at the Louvre) required that the occupation of the visitor be stated, so the perplexed Egyptian official ventured "King". On the return to Egypt, the phrasing of the questions regarding the contents of the consignment prompted the same official to state "dried fish".

[MeyerFittings]

Is there any supplier that has Mountain Mahogany available, or do you have the hoard all for yourself?

Lorenz (sp?) was making m.m. pegs for a while, as well as some of the Brits. It doesn't really lend itself to major production due to the shape and inclusions in the lumber. It's kind of like cutting tenderloins off the cow. It's both time consuming and difficult to prepare the blanks and still not well known enough to warrant commercial harvesting. There are lots of trees in the mountains but not many are large and old enough to work well. A 10 inch diameter tree can be 300 years old. The tiny growth rings are what makes it so dense. I'm always looking for more since it sits for five years before I- would use it. Actually I never thought I'd be doing this as long as I have.

Heres a really old tree.

And a photo of where I had to go to look at it.

(there were cougar tracks in the snow and no one anywhere around)

(and I don't mean high heels, David)

[scordatura]

I live in Malaysia.

Half a year ago I ordered some posters from the Strad. I waited for 3 months but the posters just didn't arrive my postbox. I emailed the Strad and they said they will send me the posters again, provided that I use a trackable post. The postage price I need to pay, is, the same as what I paid for the posters+postage I ordered earlier (about 39 pounds).

Should I ask TheStrad to refund me since I didn't receive my poster at all? Whose responsibility would it be in my case?

SVS is relatively new compared to many others tonewood suppliers. Not a native English-speaking wood dealer, I believe it is challenging enough to be able to converse in English, not to mentioned understanding those tongue-twisting foreign rules and regulations. I believe they are trying hard to improve their service too. As far as import law is concerned, it is the importer's responsibility to get the required documentation. There's a good reason why your gov want to enforce on such a strict rule, even on firewood:-

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2008_news_releases/nov_2008/11202008_8.xml

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2009_news_releases/july_2009/07152009_6.xml

I disagree with your assessment of sima's language skills. He has an excellent command of english. I spoke with him on the phone.

[Michael Doran]

Jacob- Pardon my use of the word "think". I was just in the ring with customs last week over my next 18 months worth of wood to make my living. At one point I was sure I was going to have to re-export it to Germany and try again.

Reading the tariff codes myself, I would not be comfortable trying to explain to a CBP officer that the blanks that I will use to make my cellos are an "accessory to a musical instrument." I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to fit with the examples given in the HTS.

I agree that if you try to fight customs you will just tear yourself up. That is why I carefully complied with the regulations as explained to me. It was a headache, but it worked.

Whatever HTS classicication you use that gets the wood into your shop is great, as that is the end goal. I am just trying to relate my recent experience.