Buyer Beware - Ordering Slovakian Maple

[jacobsaunders]

I understand completely.

Just hold your breath waiting for my next order.

Or any orders from any of my friends.

By the way, did you even read my first reply?

I beg your pardon, I missed your "first reply" and can't find one now either, perhaps you could tell me the post #, it will be a question of politeness to answer.

I can't help wondering though, if you aren't a bit thick. If I sent you something that subsequently got impounded by the US customs, and you wanted a refund (like the OP from the Slovacks) I would have to try pretty hard to supress the urge to tell you to piss off. Would you like me to go round to you're local customs office, and give them a round of f...'s?

[Flyboy]

Would you like me to go round to you're local customs office, and give them a round of f...'s?

A round of free f-holes from Jacob? Man, I'd PAY to see that!

[Craig Tucker]

I can't help wondering though, if you aren't a bit thick. If I sent you something that subsequently got impounded by the US customs, and you wanted a refund (like the OP from the Slovacks) I would have to try pretty hard to supress the urge to tell you to piss off. Would you like me to go round to you're local customs office, and give them a round of f...'s?

You can't find my first reply?

Yeah, I guess I'm a bit thick...

I'm out.

[David Burgess]

If one is in business, including exporting, try to make it work out for the customer. Anything less is shortsighted.

Geez, some guy is out 200 bucks, posts on a public forum about it, and a vendor will risk their reputation over that?

[jacobsaunders]

A round of free f-holes from Jacob? Man, I'd PAY to see that!

another masochist

[David Burgess]

Another mysterious double post.

[jacobsaunders]

If one is in business, including exporting, try to make it work out for the customer. Anything less is shortsighted.

Geez, some guy is out 200 bucks, posts on a public forum about it, and a vendor will risk their reputation over that?

Did I vote for the US government or did you? How on earth is someone from a different continent supposed to know what obscure laws ýou're government dreams up? Do you like people who supply you're stuff medling into you're business? Would you get on the phone if you sent me something that got snarled up at the Einführumsatzsteuerabfertigungsstelle here?

[David Burgess]

Would you get on the phone if you sent me something that got snarled up at the Einführumsatzsteuerabfertigungsstelle here?

You betcha.

And I would try to learn from it, and try to see that it didn't happen again.

[Dean_Lapinel]

Did I vote for the US government or did you? How on earth is someone from a different continent supposed to know what obscure laws ýou're government dreams up? Do you like people who supply you're stuff medling into you're business? Would you get on the phone if you sent me something that got snarled up at the Einführumsatzsteuerabfertigungsstelle here?

OK....I try to stay out of mud but you're way off base jacobsaunders.

SVS is an exporter of goods. They are an international exporter of goods and should be experts in the processing and shipping of articles to any customer they chose to serve. While there are some of us on Maestronet who actually do import and export (rare)a luthier is a professional who makes and or restores stringed instruments. There is a need to purchase (import) items but the trade is not based on importation. Being in the business of importation requires a different set of knowledge and licensing. A good business in this relatively small field would accommodate customers with shipping knowledge and...if there are problems, take the loss in good will. SVS is not the type of company (in my opinion) that strives for excellence in customer service. Jacob is correct that the item being shipped should be clearly identified and I strongly believe that this is the responsibility of the shipper. These were not "stakes".

This is International so US federal law doesn't cover this but just so you understand the US way of doing business, the onus for a failure of delivery within the US falls on the shipper. As matter of fact the Federal consumer protection act states that even if an item is delivered, if it is not as described (broken, wrong color etc... then the shipper must pay for return shipping.

Insulting the US is in vogue and you chose to do this when you stated "obscure laws you're government dreams up?"(sic). Actually this law is common around the world. The Gibson issue was based on the Lacey act which was "dreamed up" to align our importation of goods with the laws of the country of origin (rather than our own). I see that as gracious and respectful...do you?

Not related to your note but mentioned repeatedly, some make it sound as if this is a problem with Europe or even more specifically Slovakia. No...this is a debate over the ethics or questionable stewardship of a company that happens to do business in Slovakia. A side issue is whether the department of Ag acted properly but I am investigating that on my own to fulfill my curiosity.

[Dean_Lapinel]

You betcha.

And I would try to learn from it, and try to see that it didn't happen again.

Wow, I get a sick feeling when I hear or read that term "you betcha".

[Flyboy]

OK....I try to stay out of mud but you're way off base jacobsaunders.

SVS is an exporter of goods. They are an international exporter of goods and should be experts in the processing and shipping of articles to any customer they chose to serve. While there are some of us on Maestronet who actually do import and export (rare)a luthier is a professional who makes and or restores stringed instruments. There is a need to purchase (import) items but the trade is not based on importation. Being in the business of importation requires a different set of knowledge and licensing. A good business in this relatively small field would accommodate customers with shipping knowledge and...if there are problems, take the loss in good will. SVS is not the type of company (in my opinion) that strives for excellence in customer service. Jacob is correct that the item being shipped should be clearly identified and I strongly believe that this is the responsibility of the shipper. These were not "stakes".

This is International so US federal law doesn't cover this but just so you understand the US way of doing business, the onus for a failure of delivery within the US falls on the shipper. As matter of fact the Federal consumer protection act states that even if an item is delivered, if it is not as described (broken, wrong color etc... then the shipper must pay for return shipping.

Insulting the US is in vogue and you chose to do this when you stated "obscure laws you're government dreams up?"(sic). Actually this law is common around the world. The Gibson issue was based on the Lacey act which was "dreamed up" to align our importation of goods with the laws of the country of origin (rather than our own). I see that as gracious and respectful...do you?

Not related to your note but mentioned repeatedly, some make it sound as if this is a problem with Europe or even more specifically Slovakia. No...this is a debate over the ethics or questionable stewardship of a company that happens to do business in Slovakia. A side issue is whether the department of Ag acted properly but I am investigating that on my own to fulfill my curiosity.

Consumer protection law does not apply here because there has been no description or misrepresentation intended to defraud the buyer on the part of the seller. Those protections are also not applicable when the government impounds/destroys a shipment. Incidentally US customs/USDA are fully empowered to destroy shipments by Congress.

As regrettable as it is, when doing business internationally, the consumer (importer) cannot take their own laws for granted. Sole responsibility for conformance of applicable laws rests with the importer. When you do business internationally it would be naive to expect receipt of goods once you pay and that's where your responsibilities end. Maybe you've heard of customs brokers.

As a consumer you certainly should not expect the process to be similar to purchasing from Amazon.

Are there things that could have been done better? Certainly. I agree with Jacob (from Cape Town) that the shipment could have been better declared using international tariff codes. But even he said that's best left to the importer to determine, not the exporter.

I find it amusing that folks here are crying over "not doing business (with a foreign vendor)." That's precisely the intent of government policy. Buyers and sellers are just caught in the machine.

[James M. Jones]

US Customs Import form 7501....some versions on the web offer the 32 page manual download....maybe this would help...bureaucrats at their best

.SVS seems at least to have some weight in the market, looking at their web site....It's not like the US represent a small potential market (I here this one bloke spent 25 G's there), I would think somewhere in the office they might try to keep a few files for helping customers achieve goals that both desire....A professional extension, regardless of legal responsibility...Like having a chair to sit in when buying a car,......they do ship international regularly don't they?

Bummer on the loss.....live and Burn....

[jezzupe]

From the 2008 Amendment.

As of May 22, 2008, if a tree is illegally harvested,

made into wood products, and then exported to

the United States, anyone who imported, exported,

transported, sold, received, acquired, or purchased

the wood products made from that illegal timber, who

knew or should have known that the wood was illegal,

may be prosecuted for violation of the Lacey Act.

The defendant need not be the one who violated

the foreign or relevant Federal or State law; the plants

or timber, and the products made from the illegal

plants or timber, become tainted even if someone

else commits the violation of foreign or Federal or

State law. However, in order to be prosecuted, the

defendant must have known, or in the exercise of due

care should have known, that the wood was in some

way illegal.

See Molnar, you should have just known.hahaha...This is so hilarious in a sad way. So basically the intentional catch phrase in here is "should have known" And furthermore they cover all there bases by being able to pass the guilt buck over to anyone in the supply chain, from the guy with the chain saw to the end purchaser like Mike.

And yes we should all be very worried about this, again, many of you may not agree with my veiw, but I think most of you fail to see how incremental intrusion into your lives is going to slowly leave you with no freedom and an acceptance of a 'brave new world" mixed with 1984.

Personally I am going to be doing some investigating and doing a mass purchase of documented legal unconfascateble {at least now} pegs and end buttons. I smell a run on Rosewood,ebony and pernambuco.

So basically the way I read this is that you are now a suspected criminal or a criminal, depending on their discretion, for being a luthier who bought a set of pegs that he should have know were illegal, you shoulda just know, what scumbag you are Mike, unknowingly buying illegal and or determined illegal potentially infested wood. You should go to jail

Lest see if I can make our forum member "Facebook" appear again.

[lyndon]

lets turn the tables a bit, imagine you have a tourte bow with ivory frog and you sell it for 100,000 to jacob saunders in austria, you think youve done everything right, declared its antique, but jacob, just kidding here doesnt do the forms at his end and the frog is confiscated in austrian customs and burned with some elephant tusks, so jacob gets his bow with the ivory tip crudely carved off sans frog and is furious, send me 30,000 or another tourte frog he says, what do you do, my guess is 90% of you would say its your problem jacob you didnt fill out the forms right,

now you see how that guy in slovakia feels, what happens if he sends a free replacement at his loss and it gets destroyed a second time, america is probably a small part of his market, chinas probably his biggest buyer, now i take all this back if slovakia did anything wrong on the declaration, but my guess is it has absolutely nothing to do with him or who you buy from in europe for that matter, it going to start happening all the time with these new laws, and it seems to have everything to do with forms you fill out in america and maybe send to the shipper before shipment,

certainly a responsible shipper, being made aware of the problem would make trouble to inform his usa customers of the new laws, and probably the cost of replacing this one order for free with the idea to inform all future american customers about the laws would be good business practise, maybe you should post a link to this thread to the seller in slovakia, or ask to split the difference and get half the wood for free.

funny thing is im almost sure he would have sent the wood insured to the usa, how does insurance handle a package destroyed by customs?? my guess is its not covered

[Michael Doran]

Michael,

I feel for your situation. I had a shipment of cello wood from Germany held up by customs last week in fact.

There may still be hope for your wood. Initially I was given the option, by CBP, of re-exporting the wood or destroying it. If I had decided to destroy the shipment it would have been at my expense and I would have been responsible for making the arrangements. There is a clause that says that the destruction can't cost the government a penny. I had heard stories form people about shipments being destroyed, but when I asked the CBP officer about that he said that they would not destroy my wood without my involvement.

The shipper was able to provide some additional documentation (phytosanitary certificate) that customs requested, and then I had to apply for a permit to import the wood. The permit is from the USDA, and was free. I had to register with the USDA, which was a little bit of a hassle, but all in all not too bad. The permit can take up to 30 days to go through, but once I had given proof to the CPB officer that I had applied he was able to release the shipment.

The permit is PPQ-585, google that and the APHIS website with info on the regulations and such will come up.

I think the point about the harmonized tariff code is important. I classified my shipment as 4407.10.01.xx "Wood sawn or chipped lengthwise, sliced or peeled, whether or not planed, sanded or end-jointed, of a thickness exceeding 6 mm", which definitely requires a permit to import. The idea to classify it as 9209.92.00 - "Parts and accessories for the musical instruments of heading 92.02", may be valid though I think it is more applicable to pegs and such. If the wood can be shown to be "processed" then it doesn't require a permit to import, though processed can be in the eye of the beholder. My cello backs and tops were deemed "planed lumber" by customs.

I think more makers need to be aware of the pitfalls of importing wood. It is extra confusing because customs doesn't enforce the rules on every shipment. I ordered some wood from the same supplier last year and there were no problems. The first shipment was with UPS, while this last shipment was over 200 lbs. and had to go air cargo- and therefore was under more scrutiny.

Next time I will have all of my forms/permits in order before I order the wood.

-Michael Doran

[kubasa]

Interesting and slightly entertaining thread....I worked in an export business that served most all countries in Central and South America. All I can say is that as a matter of customer service, we worked closely with our customers to make sure that shipments made it to their doorstep. We had these gigantic reference books that we purchased at our own expense that told us what the requirements were for each country depending on the products we were shipping. As a matter of customer service, we made it our priority to make sure our customers knew what was required. In many cases, they were indeed aware of the requirements for their own country but for those that didn't, we often received numerous words of thanks for making them aware. Also, we had a checklist that we would fax to our customers (remember fax machines? ) so that the terms of shipment, documentation and payment were all agreed upon BEFORE the shipment ever left our loading dock. I shipped over 6 million dollars worth of goods each year and never had a problem working this way for over 6 years. I can't take credit for this whole process because someone else wisely developed it and I followed in their footsteps. What's the point? I guess there isn't one other than this is a loss for Michael but at the same time, in my opinion, the seller could have communicated this requirement to Michael. Does the seller need to do this? Did I need to do it when I was an exporter? The answer is NO to both questions BUT a little information goes a long, long way in customer relations and can avoid unfortunate outcomes to both parties involved.

[Jacob]

I think the point about the harmonized tariff code is important. I classified my shipment as 4407.10.01.xx "Wood sawn or chipped lengthwise, sliced or peeled, whether or not planed, sanded or end-jointed, of a thickness exceeding 6 mm", which definitely requires a permit to import. The idea to classify it as 9209.92.00 - "Parts and accessories for the musical instruments of heading 92.02", may be valid though I think it is more applicable to pegs and such. If the wood can be shown to be "processed" then it doesn't require a permit to import, though processed can be in the eye of the beholder. My cello backs and tops were deemed "planed lumber" by customs.

Ciresa is a fairly major supplier of tonewood in Italy. The fact that they use this tariff code for tonewood (9209.92.00) is quite significant to me, and I would not be surprised if other European tonewood suppliers also use this tariff code. I'm also pretty certain that the entire process that leads to the end product called "tonewood" indeed qualifies tonewood to be called "processed wood". By the time one gets to a billet of maple or spruce, to me that is much closer to a "part of an instrument" than to mere "planed lumber".

[Michael K.]

I think the US goverment find something more in the future to reduce or make it more difficult to import goods what can be produce or grow up in the USA. That is the only reason in my opinion. To fill out the lacey act like wood species is in my opinion ridiculous. No custom officer have the knowledge to control it.

[jacobsaunders]

OK....I try to stay out of mud but you're way off base jacobsaunders.

SVS is an exporter of goods. They are an international exporter of goods and should be experts in the processing and shipping of articles to any customer they chose to serve. While there are some of us on Maestronet who actually do import and export (rare)a luthier is a professional who makes and or restores stringed instruments. There is a need to purchase (import) items but the trade is not based on importation. Being in the business of importation requires a different set of knowledge and licensing. A good business in this relatively small field would accommodate customers with shipping knowledge and...if there are problems, take the loss in good will. SVS is not the type of company (in my opinion) that strives for excellence in customer service. Jacob is correct that the item being shipped should be clearly identified and I strongly believe that this is the responsibility of the shipper. These were not "stakes".

This is International so US federal law doesn't cover this but just so you understand the US way of doing business, the onus for a failure of delivery within the US falls on the shipper. As matter of fact the Federal consumer protection act states that even if an item is delivered, if it is not as described (broken, wrong color etc... then the shipper must pay for return shipping.

Insulting the US is in vogue and you chose to do this when you stated "obscure laws you're government dreams up?"(sic). Actually this law is common around the world. The Gibson issue was based on the Lacey act which was "dreamed up" to align our importation of goods with the laws of the country of origin (rather than our own). I see that as gracious and respectful...do you?

Not related to your note but mentioned repeatedly, some make it sound as if this is a problem with Europe or even more specifically Slovakia. No...this is a debate over the ethics or questionable stewardship of a company that happens to do business in Slovakia. A side issue is whether the department of Ag acted properly but I am investigating that on my own to fulfill my curiosity.

Dear Dean,

I’m afraid that I am, whether I like it or not, not even remotely “off base”, whatever that might mean. Mr. Molnar has an issue with the U.S. Department of Agriculture and not with SVS Tonewoods. He was, inadvertently I’m sure, fairly rude, expecting them to replace his wood. I cannot make out any failure of delivery; rather the wood was impounded by an American authority. Since Mr. Molnar is a violin maker, he is not a consumer when importing violin wood, but a businessman, so any consumer protection act is irrelevant. Since insurance has been mentioned elsewhere, “requisition or destruction to property by or under the order of any government or public or local authority” is a standard exception in an insurance policy.

My South African namesake, Jacob (best wishes) has, I think, been confusing this thread slightly with the international customs tariff code, which is not at issue here. Whenever I import a violin from America (which is the full extent of my trade with the US), more often than not, the American dispatcher omits to enter the “Zolltarifnummer” (customs tariff code) on the customs papers and I receive a stern letter from the Austrian customs complaining of this omission (as if I could do anything about it). Comically, this standard admonishing letter also gives the telephone number of a hotline, where I have to ring up and ask an excruciatingly bored sounding girl what the number should be, I enter this on the form, send it off, and the next day the postman brings me my violin.

The reference to “Obscure laws” is in no way, shape or form America bashing, since we have more than our fair share of bizarre laws and regulations here, just that I wouldn’t dream of bothering an American citizen with those.

[Bernhard Ritschard]

I hope SVS Tonewood is aware of this thread, it would be fair to give them the possibility to defend themselves, or at least being informed about this.

Personally, I would not like to see my e-mail conversation with a customer published in a forum.... That's not really a gentleman's behavior. Or is it even illegal?

Bernhard

[JohnCockburn]

Ciresa is a fairly major supplier of tonewood in Italy. The fact that they use this tariff code for tonewood (9209.92.00) is quite significant to me, and I would not be surprised if other European tonewood suppliers also use this tariff code. I'm also pretty certain that the entire process that leads to the end product called "tonewood" indeed qualifies tonewood to be called "processed wood". By the time one gets to a billet of maple or spruce, to me that is much closer to a "part of an instrument" than to mere "planed lumber".

The packaging that SVS use is liberally emblazoned with the word "Tonewood" You would think that might give the customs officials some clue what the package contains, even in the absence of a tariff code.

[Flyboy]

The packaging that SVS use is liberally emblazoned with the word "Tonewood" You would think that might give the customs officials some clue what the package contains, even in the absence of a tariff code.

The following is pure SPECULATION.

If the verbiage used on the shipping manifest was indeed "Misc. wood stakes," USDA is likely to be very risk-averse with wood products labeled as "stakes." Stakes have a connotation of likely to have been (or will be) stuck in the soil, leading to the possibility of infestation. In the absence of permits declaring species, origin, phyto-sanitary certificate, and other information, you can hardly blame them for what they did.

[David Burgess]

Maybe it would be helpful if one specifies the carrier, such as UPS.

UPS states,

"The exporter is responsible for providing complete and accurate information for export manifesting and customs clearance in the destination country. It may be necessary for the exporter to contact the company or person who arranged for the shipment of goods in order to verify and complete the information and forms that must be submitted with the shipment."

They also have a web page which lets you enter the origin and destination country, and supposedly pulls up pertinent forms and requirements HERE.

[grajki]

It some how seems very wrong for the US customs to destroy the shipment without entering into correspondence with the recipient first. Forgive me if this was not the case here but as far as I can tell it seems to the situation.

When I have ordered from the US, I usually get a letter from the Post Office informing me that there is a package waiting for me but I have to pay so many pounds in imports tax before I can have it, the import tax payable at the depot where I collect it.

The analogous situation would have the Post Office send me a letter to say that since I haven't paid the import tax then my goods have been destroyed.

Perhaps the import certification process for the goods in question is a little more complicated and protracted but this doesn't negate the principle, as I seeit, for the customs to query the contents of the shipment with the recipient in the first instance.

[robertdo]

Like Grajki I sometimes ordered from USA or even China. And once or twice I received a letter stating that there was some custom taxes to pay. But I know that this only happens randomly since there are so many parcels going in and out each countries and only a limited amount of time and custom agents. It seems to me that M. Molnar was not very lucky on this one.

But I was also very surprised that a parcel of wood was destroyed from fear of being infected. Funnily nobody would have thought of destroying a violin made with this wood. And even funnier when people order items that are shipped in large boxes of wood, well the boxes are not burned...

Edit. I also believe that SVS will more than likely make sure this doesn't happen anymore since the US market is something to consider when you are running a business.