MikeC Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 First stakes now drift wood. No offense Jesse...couldn't help myself when I saw the opening for a groaner play on words. Funny, reminds me of the day I was drivig with a passenger and said "look! I have a driver side air bag and a passenger side wind bag" LOL All this talk of banks and money, and here I am buying and selling money on the foreign exchange market as a sideline business. Things that make you go hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 "quote of the week from BBC interview" "governments don't run the world, Goldmann Sachs does" and here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I would guess as far as his business in the usa is concerned, who would order from him after this? You would be taking the chance of losing all you money invested with no possible recourse> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitri Musafia Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hello everyone, couldn't resist this topic... As a few people said on this board, the purchaser should find out in his/her own country what the import laws are. While it would make good business sense for the seller to do so, here's the problem. At last count, there are 204 sovereign states in the world, although that number tends to fluctuate. Each of them has it's own laws, and these laws change continuously. Even some regions within countries have separate laws. Keep in mind too that even the U.S. is comprised of 50 states and laws do vary... To my knowledge, there simply is no way for an exporter to get up-to-date information RE importing a piece of maple wood to all the countries in the world. From the practical standpoint, the only reliable way to resolve this problem is if the purchaser calls a local office in his own country and finds out the latest before ordering. Cheers! Dimitri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 what you dont seem to realize, dimitri, is that americans actually believe they are the most important country in the world, and that everyone in the world should treat them accordingly, sad isnt it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeyerFittings Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hello everyone, couldn't resist this topic... As a few people said on this board, the purchaser should find out in his/her own country what the import laws are. While it would make good business sense for the seller to do so, here's the problem. At last count, there are 204 sovereign states in the world, although that number tends to fluctuate. Each of them has it's own laws, and these laws change continuously. Even some regions within countries have separate laws. Keep in mind too that even the U.S. is comprised of 50 states and laws do vary... To my knowledge, there simply is no way for an exporter to get up-to-date information RE importing a piece of maple wood to all the countries in the world. From the practical standpoint, the only reliable way to resolve this problem is if the purchaser calls a local office in his own country and finds out the latest before ordering. Cheers! Dimitri A friend of mine sold a large shipment of documented pre-CITIES pernambuco to a firm in China (take note ebay buyers that all the good stuff had been picked over and already sold). The paper work took years to complete, and not the endangered species documentation as you might expect. The wood needed to be fumigated and treated and documented as such, of course adding to the cost of the wood. I guess even communist countries don't want any travelling bugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael K. Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Michael! What shipping company was used? FedEx handle this most time perfect and contact both sender and receiver to fill out correct the lacey act. Look here! PPQ Form 505 - Lacey.pdf - Adobe Reader.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baiorin Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hello everyone, couldn't resist this topic... ... To my knowledge, there simply is no way for an exporter to get up-to-date information RE importing a piece of maple wood to all the countries in the world. From the practical standpoint, the only reliable way to resolve this problem is if the purchaser calls a local office in his own country and finds out the latest before ordering. The difficulty with any bureaucracy is getting the proper information. Finding out, and check-listing the certification requirements are the responsibility of the the importer. If the exporter is large scale, they will most likely know how to "qualify" or meet the standards of the certification. Large scale companies hire Bax and other drayage companies for this type of operation. If the exporter is a small scale operation, AND they export regularly to a large market, it would make sense that it is in their best interest to know how to qualify that certification. The difficulty is that if a small scale operation has been operating without many import/export hassles, they are not likely willing to spend time/money to meet any requirements. Some shipments, no matter who the shipper is, will get stopped. I paid $1k for a FedEx overnight package for company prototypes to Canada, and it sat in customs for 2 days. Soon after, I became an ex-FedEx user because I was told that there would not be any problems In addition, I'm not fond of fumigation or baking. But what are the choices? I've thought about wood shipment/container co-ops, where individuals will "park" the wood in an EU lumber yard (I know of a good place in Germany), somewhere, and two bulk shipments a year are planned. That way, everything is certified/treated and it arrives without too many export/import problems. Once here, it can distributed however. Also, there are many fine makers with wood of grades they would never use. I'd love to have some access to these boards for myself or others. With the price that's paid for the wood plus shipping, a maker of domestic origin might make a reasonable, if not crazy, profit. I have seen AA tops of German origin go for substantially more than when it was acquired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Yacey Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Take the phrase "no sheet Sherlock". Just about every American and many other people in other countries know this phrase. Somewhere in time {after the books had been written} someone was the first person to say that, and somehow, that phrase spread across the land and is now known to both 80 year olds as well as 13 year olds. That is the "magic" of what we are dealing with. I fail to see how how Mr. Holmes bedding deficiency constitutes a slang phrase. It seems to me a logical decision by the government inspector would be simply to quarantine the suspicious material for a time, or simply expose it to carbon dioxide gas or microwave energy, if the real concern was invasive pests. I wonder how they destroyed the wood, throwing it on a garbage pile outdoors and burning it? I hope none of the feared invaders escaped during the item assessment or disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 It may be useful to refer to customs tariff codes for imports like this, because the job of the customs official is to translate the description of the material into an international customs tariff code. My experience of local customs practice is that, if the relevant customs tariff code is supplied, I'm A-for-away. On the other hand, mere descriptions of shipment contents can lead to complications which I don't need. Imagine lutherie accessories being interpreted by some customs clutz as camping equipment ("pegs"). Don't mention telephone arguments - how does one distinguish "violins" from "violence" in certain local accents? Ciresa in Italy export their tonewood with the (internationally applied) customs tariff code of 9209.92.00 - "Parts and accessories for the musical instruments of heading 92.02" - which is what it is - appropriately processed wood which will form part of a musical instrument. Tonewood billets upon the occasional inspection of a customs officer do not look like "raw" wood, "stakes" or whatever. The tariff code as supplied is happily accepted. I always locate the appropriate (international) customs tariff code before ordering anything, and insist on the supplier declaring and displaying the said code in all manners visible and invisible on the parcel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean_Lapinel Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ciresa in Italy export their tonewood with the (internationally applied) customs tariff code of 9209.92.00 - "Parts and accessories for the musical instruments of heading 92.02" - which is what it is - appropriately processed wood which will form part of a musical instrument. Tonewood billets upon the occasional inspection of a customs officer do not look like "raw" wood, "stakes" or whatever. The tariff code as supplied is happily accepted. I always locate the appropriate (international) customs tariff code before ordering anything, and insist on the supplier declaring and displaying the said code in all manners visible and invisible on the parcel. Thanks for the tip Jacob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Thanks for the tip Jacob. I hope it helps. Googling "customs tariff code" will yield many results which are searchable both ways - either by description or by tariff code. These codes are applied universally by customs, so no local interpretation is required, only the local customs regulations regarding any particular item. In order to ascertain the local regulations regarding an import item, it is MUCH simpler to refer to a customs tariff code rather than depend on a verbal description. It is the God-given duty of any government official anywhere to screw you if given half a chance. On the other hand, like the wood stake or the silver bullet is to the vampire, so is THE NUMBER to any government official. In many cases it is possible (and better) for the importer to determine the appropriate customs tariff code for a particular item. As either importer or exporter I've never had a customs official question my tariff designations, but like the example of Ciresa I mentioned earlier, it helps me to know the practice of suppliers of good international standing. As far as lutherie is concerned I've found the boundaries to be fairly simple and not really open to misinterpretation. For instance, I would not try to export an elephant tusk as a bow accessory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edi malinaric Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I ordered some maple scroll block from SKS Tonewoods in Bratislava, Slovakia. The shipment was intercepted and destroyed by US Dept of Agriculture. This never happened before. Hi Michael - sorry you lost that wood. Maybe because I now work in a Government Dept, because my parents were Croatian and I kept being shown the idiocy of the English language where two words that are promounced the same are spelt and mean different things and I have a love of doing crossword puzzles, especially the cryptic ones... I read the notice you received and my mind went... STAKES = STEAKS = "CONTAINS MEAT NOT ADMITTED..." I suspect that the official involved speaks a phonetically based language. Maybe you should be taking this up with your Customs Dept for wrong identification of the parcel contents. I wouldn't hold out too much hope though - getting a Gov. type to cut his own throat is next to impossible. Good Luck edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Since the laws are that problematic, there should be a big waring label from the suppliers (maybe there was?) saying "if you don't get proper documentation your shipment will be destroyed and you will get no refund from us" I came back from spain one time and the confiscated my "jamon", which was a very expensive and tasty air dried acorn fed ham, sealed in a vacuum pack about 8 oz . each. They said it was because of the pork industry here in the us. They must have really great lunches at the customs break room! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 ok here to try to say something intelligent(hard for me) its seems like the lacey act isnt just a problem for gibson guitars anymore, this could just be the tip of the iceberg, and now its affected the maestronet family, imagine if european tonewood was cut off for the states, it could be the end of violin making as we know it in america, imagine if everyone had to make violins out of rock maple and sitka spruce, that chinese wood would start to sound better and better, heartfelt condolences to the OP, fortunate you didnt have more at "stake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 If I send you something from Europe, my responsibility ends the second that I have brought it to the post office here. I understand completely. Just hold your breath waiting for my next order. Or any orders from any of my friends. By the way, did you even read my first reply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 By the way, did you even read my first reply? On to violin related topics. I can see exactly where this is going, and I ain't going along for THAT ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted September 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 If I send you something from Europe, my responsibility ends the second that I have brought it to the post office here. Not if you are a savy business person who wants to stay in business. Think about THAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 ct now calm down, we all know you have no intention of buying anything from jacob, and i dare say jacob wouldnt be interested in anything you have to offer, the fact of the matter is this item was destroyed by americans not slovakians, and as people said there were some form to be filled out by americans that werent, seeing as the slovakian seller had no possibility of filling out forms in his country that were supposed to be filled out by the american buyer, how is it the sellers fault, evidently there is a new law or old law that is just starting to be enforced, and the buyers, americans, have to do the work, or am i mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Richwine Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 We import instruments by the container load, and export regularly to Europe, Asia, and Australia. I used to handle a lot of that business for the company. It is indeed up to the importer by law and custom to see that his or her own country's laws are complied with. The explanations given above by Baiorin and Dimitri Musafia are very good, IMHO It is also up to the importer to pay all duties and taxes on the material they import. We spent a lot of time and effort making sure our Lacey act documentation was adequate, but just as with the income tax, the answers depend on who you are talking to, and one never feels too certain that he has everything right. The exporter has no liability except perhaps to supply the documentation the importer asks for regarding origin. The importer really shouldn't buy from a supplier who can't supply sufficient documentation, but it is up to the importer to fill out all the government forms and to make sure that all the paperwork is in order. FedEx can be pretty helpful on small shipments, but there's a learning curve there, too. Was for me, at least. We quit using UPS for international shipments years ago when they tried to charge us for duties on a shipment to Korea. Don't know what they are doing now, but caveat emptor. I'll refrain from political comments, although my neck gets red just thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Avoid ordering from tonewood.sk aka svs. Sima promised to send replacements for sub standard wood. I asked him about his return policy because of other's problems with the company. He told me that "no need to return I will just send replacements if there is a problem". Of the four neck blocks he sent three were unusable because they were so badly quartered. No answer from him at all when I enquired. Very quick to take the order though... Never again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I'm glad it didn't happen to me, with about $25,000 worth of wood shipped from Slovakia after I was there last time. Y'know though, If a vendor frequently sells internationally, it wouldn't hurt to start compiling, and offering customers information on what they need to do to import successfully. Just kinda makes good business sense. When people have a "that's the customer's problem" attitude, I think it has a good chance of coming back to haunt them. How well would a violin shop do, if all they cared about were their obligations under the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 ct now calm down, we all know you have no intention of buying anything from jacob, and i dare say jacob wouldnt be interested in anything you have to offer, the fact of the matter is this item was destroyed by americans not slovakians, and as people said there were some form to be filled out by americans that werent, seeing as the slovakian seller had no possibility of filling out forms in his country that were supposed to be filled out by the american buyer, how is it the sellers fault, evidently there is a new law or old law that is just starting to be enforced, and the buyers, americans, have to do the work, or am i mistaken Why would you think I'm not calm? I can remember my first traffic school. The teacher tried - throughout the entire four hours - to impart the idea that it doesn't matter who has the right of way, if the end result is that you get killed in an accident. He was right. I no longer expect the right of way - or drive like the other guy will yeild it - even when the law stipulates that I have it, for practical reasons only, it has nothing to do with whether I'm in the right or not. Reread my first reply here and see if any of it makes sense both for an unhappy customer and for someone wanting to establish a successful export business. Like I said earlier - this isn't particularly a profitable discussion at this point. Anyone here is entitled to have and to communicate his or her own opinion, and no one need change fto acomodate anyone else for any reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 ct now calm down, we all know you have no intention of buying anything from jacob, and i dare say jacob wouldnt be interested in anything you have to offer, the fact of the matter is this item was destroyed by americans not slovakians, and as people said there were some form to be filled out by americans that werent, seeing as the slovakian seller had no possibility of filling out forms in his country that were supposed to be filled out by the american buyer, how is it the sellers fault, evidently there is a new law or old law that is just starting to be enforced, and the buyers, americans, have to do the work, or am i mistaken Possibly the most sensible post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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