Michael_Molnar Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I ordered some maple scroll block from SKS Tonewoods in Bratislava, Slovakia. The shipment was intercepted and destroyed by US Dept of Agriculture. This never happened before. Here is the official notice: I asked Ondrej Sima to get the permit and send me the order or refund my money. He claims that it is my problem. I have to get the permit, and he has no responsibility for shipments that leave his office. In other words, he does not guarantee delivery. The question I have for MN'ers is who is responsible for the permit? DO I have to get a permit for every order of European wood? Here is the correspondence: _______________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ From: "TONEWOOD" <sima@***> To: "Michael R. Molnar" <molnar@***> Subject: Re: US Department of Agriculture Permit is Needed Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:02:29 +0100 Dear Mike , I am very sorry to hear this. Unfortunately ,our responsibility ends when the shipment leaves our warehouse Import procedure and compliance with import requirements on your side is fully your responsibility. Although we are at fully at your disposal all the time with any help / asistance / documentation you need for import we are not responsible for the shipment I don't know when and what happend with the shipment on your side but I am sure before US authorities decide to "destroy" the shipment there must be communication between them and recipient requesting necessary documents. If we were informed about this situation from your side we would certainly help you to solve it with supplying documents necessary in such situation. I sugegst that you contact either your mail office or customs and get the exact information about the shipment becuae from the document you sent me I don't htink itw was destroyed and I think there is still a chance to get the shipment if you supply proper document. I believe Phytosanitary certificate should be the document but you have to find out on your side the status of the shipment so that we don't waste time and money to getting this documents for you in vain Looking forward to hear from you and hoping for the solution of the problem Ondrej Sima TONEWOOD ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael R. Molnar To: TONEWOOD Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:03 AM Subject: US Department of Agriculture Permit is Needed Ondrej, The US Department of Agriculture destroyed your shipment to me because you do not have a permit. See the attachment. This is Invoice Number 040251-11 for 135 Eur. Please get the permit and send my order again, or refund my money. Good luck, Mike Molnar ====== At 03:13 AM 8/22/2011, you wrote: Dear Michael , thank you very much for your new order. The total is 90 Eur + 45 Eur air mail shipping Best regards Ondrej TONEWOOD ___________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernhard Ritschard Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I am sorry to hear that - I think you'll have to ask the US Dept of Agriculture how to proceed your order without having it destroyed... Fortunately there haven't been dozens of beautifully flamed cello backs involved...! Bernhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted September 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 The document says: Container and Contents Destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 In case you haven't looked up the relevant statutes, here is the link: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=d90c3ce65edbef183f7f9b2ce381b9c7&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:5.1.1.1.6.9&idno=7 The jury is still out but if I were a betting man the response from "TONEWOOD" is on point. You are responsible for obtaining a permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Well, we do many things without paying attention that there are many laws regarding wood import, one of the requirements is a "phitosanitary certificate" without this document wood cannot be imported. Ok, we receive wood in a regular basis without it but the law in most countries ask for that to avoid infestation by exotic woodworms, for instance. Once I had wood sent back because it lacked the phitosanitary certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernhard Ritschard Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 "The document says: Container and Contents Destroyed." That's not best way to protect the forests - but maybe it's an opportunity for the authorities to get some extra money.... I bet you have to pay for obtaining the permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 It is not only about paying, but may be time consuming and full of bureacracy also. If you ask it to be sent with your wood the seller will probably decline to sell to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Don't worry. We're from the government, and we're here to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTS Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I import plants for our nursery and it is always up to us to get the proper permits on our side of the pond.The grower gets the necessary inspection certificates on his side.I would expect the same rules to apply to untreated wood.Now,that said,it often happens that some doofus clerk holds up things anyway until the plants are long dead.In that case they say oops and you eat the loss.As Brad said,"they are here to help". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 This is Invoice Number 040251-11 for 135 Eur. Please get the permit and send my order again, or refund my money. Good luck, Mike Molnar I agree. Cool, sorry Mike, about you problem, still, great forum fodder! In this matter - the onus is on the shipper (if they have any sense) regardless of any "legal aspects" that might be in place - to make sure that the person ordering, isn't at fault when an article ordered in good faith is not delivered. If I was the shipper this would be my main objective in order to insure that my business was trusted and held in high regard. Simple The shipper is the one engaged in the business of shipping - and in particular, shipping a material that might require special import/export considerations. I would react just like Mike in this matter. I'm a customer and it is not incumbent on me to be up on current shipping laws (in either country) or to insist that a secure channel be employed in such matters. In any event, this, if it is not a common occurrence, would be a gesture of goodwill from the supplier, to show to a prospective client from a country where there might possibly be a HUGE pool of prospective customers - that they will go the extra mile to make sure the customer is happy with their service... For them not to make sure that their business practices are... well, lets just say that there are many people in business who seem perfectly happy to cut off their nose despite their face. (or perhaps its - to spite their face - I don't know...) In my opinion, this "Oh well, tough luck" attitude from the shipper spells many PO'd customers in the short run, and disaster for the business in the long run. Already, I wouldn't use this service if I needed wood. (I would use Orcas Island - buy domestic!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Don't worry. We're from the government, and we're here to help you. You're not from around here, are you? (guffaw!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luthierwannabe Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I agree. Cool, sorry Mike, about you problem, still, great forum fodder! In this matter - the onus is on the shipper (if they have any sense) regardless of any "legal aspects" that might be in place - to make sure that the person ordering, isn't at fault when an article ordered in good faith is not delivered. If I was the shipper this would be my main objective in order to insure that my business was trusted and held in high regard. Simple The shipper is the one engaged in the business of shipping - and in particular, shipping a material that might require special import/export considerations. I would react just like Mike in this matter. I'm a customer and it is not incumbent on me to be up on current shipping laws (in either country) or to insist that a secure channel be employed in such matters. In any event, this, if it is not a common occurrence, would be a gesture of goodwill from the supplier, to show to a prospective client from a country where there might possibly be a HUGE pool of prospective customers - that they will go the extra mile to make the customer happy with their service... For them not to make sure that their business practices are... well, lets just say that there are many people in business who seem perfectly happy to cut off their nose despite their face. (or perhaps its - to spite their face - I don't know...) In my opinion, this "Oh well, tough luck" attitude from the shipper spells many PO'd customers in the short run, and disaster for the business in the long run. Already, I wouldn't use this service if I needed wood. (I would use Orcas Island - buy domestic!) Hi CT, I disagree. I believe the onus is on the importer to be aware of the import laws and regulations of his/her own country. You cant seriously expect an exporter to be aware of all the laws of all countries. I bring items across the border from the USA into Canada and I can assure you it is my responsibility to be aware of all the laws and regulations appurtaining to the item that I am bringing in to Canada. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hi Mike, i dont know about raw wood but anything made of plant species sent from Europe to the states ,needs a plant species declaration form. This has only been a recent requirement and most dont know about it unless they ask the shippers,e.g fedex. Without it they can if they are in the mind frame destory the shipment as plant species from an unknown origin. I had to describe all parts of a violin and fittings ,which species and country of origin,even though the ebony and other parts could have came from anywhere. So anyone sent instruments or wood to the States beware. Chances are they wont bother the shipment but if your unlucky what happened to you is what will happen with no comebacks. plant product form You would need to ensure they attach several copies of this to the shipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Don't worry. We're from the government, and we're here to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Hi CT, I disagree. I believe the onus is on the importer to be aware of the import laws and regulations of his/her own country. You cant seriously expect an exporter to be aware of all the laws of all countries. I bring items across the border from the USA into Canada and I can assure you it is my responsibility to be aware of all the laws and regulations appurtaining to the item that I am bringing in to Canada. Tony Actually I can expect that the shipper be aware of all such laws... seriously. In addition, I can expect the shipper to abide by them, as I always do when I ship to another country, or even within the States. Though, I respect that you have a different opinion on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I bring items across the border from the USA into Canada and I can assure you it is my responsibility to be aware of all the laws and regulations appurtaining to the item that I am bringing in to Canada. Tony Right. As the "shipper", it's you responsibility. In this case you would be the "export/import entity". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Right. As the "shipper", it's you responsibility. In this case you would be the "export/import entity". If I send you something from Europe, my responsibility ends the second that I have brought it to the post office here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colledge Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I'm not sure what permit you're talking about. I use a broker, he has me fill out a Lacey Act document, which the Phytosanitary Cert has all the info for. Maybe he has the permit we are talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ouch.... I would think that while there might be no legal need for an exporter to check the import laws of each country the exporter is shipping into ,there is a thing called good business practice that necessitates doing some homework to insure costumer satisfaction...thank god you weren't ordering more quantity....I was thinking of ordering some from the same supplier ,but after reading this thread I'll reconsider.....At least until I research import laws.....I do appreciate the import laws,they go a long way to help protect against invasive species, but it seems most of the hitchhikers arrive in other ways such as ballast water or industrial pallets and what not, It's just to bad that your stakes got destroyed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean_Lapinel Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 In this matter - the onus is on the shipper (if they have any sense) regardless of any "legal aspects" that might be in place - to make sure that the person ordering, isn't at fault when an article ordered in good faith is not delivered. If I was the shipper this would be my main objective in order to insure that my business was trusted and held in high regard. The shipper is the one engaged in the business of shipping - and in particular, shipping a material that might require special import/export considerations. In any event, this, if it is not a common occurrence, would be a gesture of goodwill from the supplier, to show to a prospective client from a country where there might possibly be a HUGE pool of prospective customers - that they will go the extra mile to make the customer happy with their service... For them not to make sure that their business practices are... well, lets just say that there are many people in business who seem perfectly happy to cut off their nose despite their face. (or perhaps its - to spite their face - I don't know...) In my opinion, this "Oh well, tough luck" attitude from the shipper spells many PO'd customers in the short run, and disaster for the business in the long run. Already, I wouldn't use this service if I needed wood. (I would use Orcas Island - buy domestic!) I agree and while I tried to trim much of Craig's typically brief note I had to leave this much as I found it was pertinent and worth repeating. I would never again attempt to order from SKS after a personal interaction but that was a one on one event and my bias. Even so, how can a company with integrity just drop this on the customer like this? Incidentally, who designated this as wood stakes? Perhaps this was the death trap. Wood that is meant to be used in the ground would receive a greater degree of scrutiny than wood meant for violin making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 this is really good news for vampires........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean_Lapinel Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 this is really good news for vampires........ True Lyndon. Perhaps this wasn't a mi-stake but an infiltration of the AG by vampires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 The violation on Mikes certificate is for infestation of wood boring insects ,etc... Does that mean all wood needs to have proof of some form of treatment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Don't worry. We're from the government, and we're here to help you. facebook was here. http://www.cnbc.com/id/44701381 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean_Lapinel Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Sorry, that's the problem, and I mean THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!! you!!! and the rest of you[including me} DO NOT HAVE GOVERNMENTS.... GOVERNMENTS AS YOU KNOW THEM are in actuality divisions of the CENTRAL BANKS.... First stakes now drift wood. No offense Jesse...couldn't help myself when I saw the opening for a groaner play on words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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