Tight Re-hair

[Guy_Gallo]

Can a slightly tight re-hair damage a bow?

I just got a bow back from the shop and it cannot be fully loosened.

[Brad Dorsey]

Can a slightly tight re-hair damage a bow?...

I think probabaly not, depending on how slight. If the hair remains more than slightly too tight it might lose camber. Possibly the hair length was OK at the shop but it is too short now because the air in your residence is drier than that in the shop. Because you live in New York, this problem will probably become worse with the coming of fall and winter, because the drier air will shrink the hair shorter than it is now. You should take the bow back and get it fixed.

[Craig Tucker]

I think probabaly not, depending on how slight. If the hair remains more than slightly too tight it might lose camber.

You should take the bow back and get it fixed.

I agree on both counts.

Straight from a rehair, the bow should loosen fully.

What is even worse is when one side of the ribbon is tighter or tightens more quickly than the other.

[Guy_Gallo]

I'd say it's about 3/8ths of an inch too tight (judging by how the frog is pulled when the screw is removed).

When fully loosened, it can draw a note (any pressure and the stick touches string, but a light scale sounds).

It was like this from the shop. And it's very humid these days (lots of rain)... so I am concerned that the drier weather will just make it worse.

--Guy

[PASEWICZ]

What is even worse is when one side of the ribbon is tighter or tightens more quickly than the other.

???!

[Janito]

A good stick should not loose camber from this amount of tension.

For comparison, think about the number of hours in a day a stick will be fully tensioned for professional use/practice.

[jacobsaunders]

I'm sure, if you take you're bow back to the shop that they will solve the problem for you, since nobody wants a customer grumbling to all his colleagues about a rehair.

[Craig Tucker]

???!

For this comment;

"What is even worse is when one side of the ribbon is tighter or tightens more quickly than the other."

Perhaps I should have added, "in my opinion" ?

In my opinion, with this problem, very often one side of the hair ribbon is either tighter, or starts tightening faster than the other side, even to the point of tending to pull the stick in a particular direction - that's worse than the entire ribbon being equally "slightly tight" when it (the ribbon) should be in a relaxed state.

Of course, either way should not be acceptable.

In my opinion, the bow (the ribbon of hair) should travel from fully lose to fully tight - with room to spare at either end, and with equal tension in the ribbon - not pulling to either side.

[Richf]

No need to add "in my opinion," Craig. We'd have to start adding that to every single post. More importantly, I thought your point was clear. What I don't understand is the statement "???!" Does that mean lack of understanding, disagreement, or ??!

Richard

[skiingfiddler]

I'd say it's about 3/8ths of an inch too tight (judging by how the frog is pulled when the screw is removed).

If by 3/8 inch too tight, you mean that the frog wants to sit 3/8 inch in front of its most forward possible position when the hair ribbon is pulled just enough to give it a ribbon shape but not enough to stretch it (ie, if you mean you have to pull back 3/8 inch on the frog to even insert it into the stick mortise with frog screw eyelet in most forward position), that's a lot of tension.

I wonder if that 3/8 inch (9.5 mm) is accurate.

I find that with a bow which is properly rehaired so that the ribbon has shape but very little tension when frog is in the most forward position, the frog needs to be cranked back about 2 or 3 mm, maybe 4 -- and 5 would be a lot (that would be droopy hair) -- in order to achieve playing tension. In other words the frog needs to move about 3 mm to go from most relaxed to playing position.

If you have to pull the frog back 9 mm just to insert it into the stick mortise, you have a very tight rehair. I'd take it back to the rehairer and leave the frog off the stick until then.

[duane88]

No need to add "in my opinion," Craig. We'd have to start adding that to every single post. More importantly, I thought your point was clear. What I don't understand is the statement "???!" Does that mean lack of understanding, disagreement, or ??!

Richard

???! means, in my opinion...: 1-WTF! 2-How did that get out the door? Not in my shop.

We rehair a bow for a local symphony member, a nice Sartory, and he wants the bow tight enough that it can be played when freshly rehaired. I don't like it, and I've told him that if it gets dry after a rehair, it could be a problem. He wants it that way, in spite of the risk.

I like to be able to completely loosen the hair, but with a really weak stick, or a stick in need of camber, it might be tight enough to play without hitting the stick, if you play lightly.

Uneven tension from side-to-side can be a problem even if the hair is proper length. in my opinion.

[skiingfiddler]

We rehair a bow for a local symphony member, a nice Sartory, and he wants the bow tight enough that it can be played when freshly rehaired.

Duane,

Do you mean that the player wants the hair ribbon tight enough for playing when the frog is in its most forward position, frog screw eyelet against front of stick mortise? No cranking up needed for playing?

If that's what you mean, then supposedly Fritz Kreisler did a variant of that. He is reported to have never loosened his bows (gold mounted fleur de lis Hill bows) after playing. He would just go back to the Hills each year to get two new ones of the same type. The Hills, by the way, had a waiting list of people who wanted to purchase Kreisler's traded in bows.

At least Kreisler didn't have the frog screw eyelet grinding against the front edge of the stick mortise, which I would worry your client might experience, if he/she wants playing tension in the most forward position of the frog.

[Guy_Gallo]

3/8ths is a mis-measurement. More like 3/16ths.

Estimated this way. When I remove the screw, with the screw eyelet up against the end of the mortise, and then remove the screw, the frog wants to pull toward the tip -- from the tension -- and looking at the angle between stick and now relaxed frog -- I'd say it's a little less than 3/16ths. So more like 4mm.

So. Using the other measure mentioned in the thread: with frog out of the mortise and hair reasonably relaxed, and keeping the frog parallel to the stick, how far do you have to pull to have the screw eyelet fall into the mortise? I'd say about the length of the eyelet itself.

I'm going to take it back to the shop and have them look at it. Although it's not a pedigreed stick, it's strong and a very good player, and I don't want it damaged.

[Scott S]

I learned to rehair from what I read here at MN. The person that I took the most direction from did his bows exactly this way so that the hair would not be sloppy loose when the frog was totally let down. So at the great risk of lashes I must say that this is the way that I was taught and this is what I strive for when placing my second knot. Guy, your last post perfectly describes the tension that I try to acheive when the frog is inserted into its groove. I am not the only one who does this. I always believed that when the hair is allowed to go completely loose each hair can be differently affected by humidity as if each hair has a mind of its own, and when slightly tensioned, humidity has a more uniform affect on the hair.

Lash away, Scott

[David Burgess]

???! means, in my opinion...: 1-WTF! 2-How did that get out the door? Not in my shop.

Jerry isn't big on wasting words. If one ever sees a multi-paragraph post from him, I'd be very surprised.

My take on the situation, having been around him a lot, is that he doesn't necessarily agree with the notion that there should always be equal tension from side-to-side.

Tension isn't a spec, but takes many things into consideration. Back when I was doing rehairs, there were some bows which were so strong, that they couldn't reach zero tension, and also be tightened to playing tension. One or the other.

[Craig Tucker]

I like to be able to completely loosen the hair, but with a really weak stick, or a stick in need of camber, it might be tight enough to play without hitting the stick, if you play lightly.

Absolutely. Bows with camber problems require some special attention.

Heifetz (I knew one of the people that used to do his rehairs) would purportedly (ooccasionally) bring the bow back in after picking it up, and request that it be re haired, because while playing, he could feel that a hair was crossed...

I don't know, but that's the story.

The biggest weird thing I run across is those people who want "extra hair".

Talk about an "action" killer.

[Brad Dorsey]

...The person that I took the most direction from did his bows exactly this way so that the hair would not be sloppy loose when the frog was totally let down...

The way you describe would be fine if the humidity remained constant. But if you make the hair this long when the humidity is high, it will probably be too short if the air became drier, as it does in New England when winter comes. I recently rehaired a bow for someone who was moving to Israel the next day from the humid New England summer. I new I had to leave him some extra hair length to anticipate shrinkage when he got there, but how much extra was a guess.

[Scott S]

The way you describe would be fine if the humidity remained constant. But if you make the hair this long when the humidity is high, it will probably be too short if the air became drier, as it does in New England when winter comes. I recently rehaired a bow for someone who was moving to Israel the next day from the humid New England summer. I new I had to leave him some extra hair length to anticipate shrinkage when he got there, but how much extra was a guess.

Yes, humidity should always be known and compensated for when rehairing.

Scott

[Craig Tucker]

Yes, humidity should always be known and compensated for when rehairing.

Scott

No question.

That's why a bow coming directly from a rehair, that's too tight to start with, should be redone.

[Brad Dorsey]

Yes, humidity should always be known and compensated for when rehairing...

And not just the current humidity. Any anticipated change in humidity, caused by things like travel plans or seasonal fluctuations, should be taken into consideration.

[Craig Tucker]

Tension isn't a spec, but takes many things into consideration. Back when I was doing rehairs, there were some bows which were so strong, that they couldn't reach zero tension, and also be tightened to playing tension.

Isn't it the other way around?

[Craig Tucker]

And not just the current humidity. Any anticipated change in humidity, caused by things like travel plans or seasonal fluctuations, should be taken into consideration.

Yes, the bow (providing it is within a "normal" range to begin with - without any great problems) should be able to travel pretty much anywhere (with the possible exception of the Arctic Circle) without any major problems, as the amount of tightening up due to temperature or humidity changes, isn't often all that excessive.

A rehair that is simply too tight (where the frog (or the tip knot, if you rehair tip last) knot was improperly placed) is generally always going to be too tight - period.

[Scott S]

Too tight and too loose seem to be defined differently.

Scott

[Skywalker]

Jerry isn't big on wasting words. If one ever sees a multi-paragraph post from him, I'd be very surprised.

My take on the situation, having been around him a lot, is that he doesn't necessarily agree with the notion that there should always be equal tension from side-to-side.

Absolutely true.

Tension on the hair should favor the playing side. The reason being is that the player will inevitably lean the bow towards the playing side (i.e. thumb side for cello/bass and finger side for violin/viola), rarely (if ever) is a bow played exactly perpendicular to the string, so even tension is unnecessary. Tension on the playing side acts as a counterweight to anticipate this lean, thus the bow remains straighter while in action.

As far as length, humidity is absolutely a factor and one must also anticipate the climate when rehairing; as a rule of thumb, leaving slightly longer in dryer areas and slightly shorter in more humid areas. However, there are many other factors involved. For example: the climate the bow was rehaired in vs. that of the final destination of the bow, will it be used primarily indoors or out, does the player use a humidifier, ad infinitum...

[David Burgess]

Skywalker, you've made some huge sacrifices to be where you are. Jerry has made similar sacrifices. It has a pretty solid track record.