does this label look 100 yrs old??


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even so folia, it looks very similar to the results you can get with photocopying, im not actually saying all these labels have to be fake, just that if youre shopping at auction or ebay you should maybe avoid the ones that look like they could be fake, as there is risk involved, and yes im assuming how they look on my monitor is how they look in real life, which isnt necessarily true

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What I'm trying to figure out is what would be achieved if one could prove with certainty that the label is fake.

People with good intentions do insert new labels in old fiddles which have lost their labels, and they might insert as accurate a facsimile as they can with no other intention than to provide as accurate a label as possible, just as a repairer would try to restore a broken off corner of a fiddle with a new corner which looks as much like the old one as possible.

The status of the label says nothing conclusive about the fiddle, and, I assume, the status of the fiddle is the real issue.

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its the law of averages, if a fiddle has a fake label its not very likely that label matches the violin, though ive heard a lot of genuine strads have reproduction labels, more likely the label matches what some amateur thought the violin is or more commonly what they thought they might pass the fiddle off as

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Jeffrey had a great idea, and Lyndon also suggested a similar thing in a different way. Have an expert in Boston violins look at the fiddle and give his opinion. That has been done. However, since the dealer who looked at it did not charge me for an opinion and, because I do not want his name entered into this tempest, I will not mention it. But, this fiddle was at Skinner in one of the rooms of the Boston hotel where dealers sell to each other. Some of the experts known to all of us here looked at it and had no trouble with its authenticity. The person who consigned it to me, (who may have the largest collection of Boston violins in the world, including multiple Squiers, Bryants, Whites, Baltzersen, Stanley's, etc)traded it from a well-known dealer who regularly does appraisals and certificates. He also told me he should have taken the better price he had been offered a year ago in the hotel while at Skinner.

Brad Dorsey also has sufficient experience with New England made violins to express an opinion that should be taken seriously. By the way, the person who won the auction is a known dealer in the Boston market who will have little trouble selling it for a handsome profit. When I am not certain of a maker or an attribution I describe it that way. For example ebay listing of a falsely labeled violin

Here is an untouched image of the Ropes label that I took. Even if I wasn't sure that was right, the label still looks as it should.

DSCF4327.JPG

I think that Lyndon would have little problem with the Ropes attribution if he actually saw the violin.

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well i just got off the phone with a top expert, who told me he thought i was right, the label looks fishy, even if it is a genuine ropes violin, maybe thats why it has a fake ropes label,happens all the time in this business, however he said he had studied pictures of squier and didnt see any similarities, i dont give a damn pahdah, but i think you and some of your labels are full of it, my first exposure to brad was here reccomending elmers glue for glueing in bass bars, so i guess i have some trouble trusting him.

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...my first exposure to brad was here reccomending elmers glue for glueing in bass bars...

Please provide a citation for this assertion or retract it. I have never glued a bass bar with Elmer's glue, I would never do so, and I cannot imagine that I ever would recommend that anyone else do so on this forum or anywhere else.

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well the discussion about glueing bass bars was about 6 years ago, and a major contibutor, clearly in my memory brad was talking about using carpenters wood glue, if you have always used and reccomended hide glue for this, brad, my sincere apologies, i have a clear memory of being really turned off to brad because of his not always reccomending hide glue, correct me if im wrong......

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well i just got off the phone with a top expert, who told me he thought i was right, the label looks fishy, even if it is a genuine ropes violin, maybe thats why it has a fake ropes label,happens all the time in this business, however he said he had studied pictures of squier and didnt see any similarities, i dont give a damn pahdah, but i think you and some of your labels are full of it, my first exposure to brad was here reccomending elmers glue for glueing in bass bars, so i guess i have some trouble trusting him.

Lovely. Just lovely.

Well I also just got of the phone with a "top expert" who told me that it was totally right and you were wrong. So there

Also this "top expert" was very appreciative of me asking him to spend his "top expert" time looking at a violin on ebay/maestronet. Being a "top expert" he certainly had nothing better to do.

Lyndon, I would direct your attention to post #43.

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argle i know pahdah has a lot of friends here on maestronet, and since anon posters seem to be going crazy to back up pahdah and discredit me, i can only assume that youre somehow connected.

not only would i have no possibility of appraising a ropes violin if i held it in my hand, but i would have no interest in it or any other boston school violin, as so far from what ive seen i cant stand american violins, like i said before half of these makers were just importing factory german stuff and magically regraduating it, that kind of stuff doesnt interest me, my georg gemunder is the closest thing ive seen to an actual quality hand made american, but he studied in paris and germany first,

historically for violin making america has had a lousy history without good apprenticeships and violin making schools like they have in europe, many many american makers are self taught and it shows, the rise in value of american violins is a phenomena in america only, just like the rise in value of english violins in england. in all fairness to americans, around 1900 wasnt exactly a great time for violin making, a lot of crap was coming out of germany at that time too. ive never seen a colonial era american violin, they might be a lot more interesting, but this idea of an american that gets two sentences in wenberg being a top maker is a bit far fetched for me at least.

ok there ive said it, i dont like american violins, and for the price i think you can find a better sounding german violin easily.

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argle i know pahdah has a lot of friends here on maestronet, and since anon posters seem to be going crazy to back up pahdah and discredit me, i can only assume that youre somehow connected.

not only would i have no possibility of appraising a ropes violin if i held it in my hand, but i would have no interest in it or any other boston school violin, as so far from what ive seen i cant stand american violins, like i said before half of these makers were just importing factory german stuff and magically regraduating it, that kind of stuff doesnt interest me, my georg gemunder is the closest thing ive seen to an actual quality hand made american, but he studied in paris and germany first,

historically for violin making america has had a lousy history without good apprenticeships and violin making schools like they have in europe, many many american makers are self taught and it shows, the rise in value of american violins is a phenomena in america only, just like the rise in value of english violins in england. in all fairness to americans, around 1900 wasnt exactly a great time for violin making, a lot of crap was coming out of germany at that time too. ive never seen a colonial era american violin, they might be a lot more interesting, but this idea of an american that gets two sentences in wenberg being a top maker is a bit far fetched for me at least.

ok there ive said it, i dont like american violins, and for the price i think you can find a better sounding german violin easily.

Nope, not connected in any way, shape, or form. My choice to remain anonymous is for a purely business/professional reason, and should have no bearing on what I say here.

Your distain of early American violins, your lack of experience with them, and your sweeping generalizations about early American makers says all that needs to be said about your comments regarding the violin and label in question.

Good luck!

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1900 isnt early anything, 1800 is early, all over the world the beginning of the end of quality violins coincided with the industrial revolutution and the introduction of power tools and kiln drying, which happens to be about 1900, quality makers existed in 1900 just like today but they were in the minority, by contrast its hard to find a german or italian violin from the 1700s that isnt quite good in some way, not so in 1900 or 1950 etc etc except maybe in italy

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...i have a clear memory of being really turned off to brad because of his not always reccomending hide glue, correct me if im wrong......

Perhaps you are recalling my explanations of why I use Elmer's glue for gluing cleats (not bass bars) here:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=252014

and here:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=317516

I have also explained on the Pegbox how I use super glue for bow work.

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Here's what Jeffrey Holmes had to say about it at the time:

what total bs, quoting jeffrey out of context folia, heres what he really said

Hi all...

I only have a few minutes, so no time to get far I to the pros and cons...

I'll just say that I use a few different styles of cleats, depending on the application.

I send the grain perpendicular to the grain of the plate when using rectangular or trapizoidal cleats, and at a 45 degree angle if using diamond shape cleats. I never run the grain parallel when cleating, but always do when patching.

I use hide glue. I've considered and, on occasion, tried other glues. Not convinced there is an advantage. Not opposed to there being one, however...

If consideration of more successful high-end restoration counts, the jobs that have held up best employ the same methods I've described. Those that have had complications down the road often employed a variation... and/or alternate glue.

There are certain animal glues that can be used should one wish more flexibility, btw... although I have not seen reason to use them for cleats. (quote from jeffrey holmes)

if you were to read the thread, folia, virtually everyone condemned brads idea and reccomended hide glue, what happens if you want to replace a cleat youve glued with elmers, you have two choices, dissolve the glue with formaldahyde or plane away the top to get rid of the glue for the replacement cleat, if jeffrey thinks this is ok, then he isnt at the top of his trade in my book, besides i dont think he is reccomending it at all, read carefully what he said the top restorations that hold up are done the traditional way with hide glue, and the problem restoration involve experimenting with other glue have more problems, at least thats what it says to me

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You're right, of course, that he doesn't recommend it. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that he did.

I do want to point out that contrary to your earlier statement, no one here is trying to discredit you. Some of us just thought you might have made a little mistake about the color of paper and ink in a picture, and we provided evidence to the contrary. That's all. I make mistakes like that all the time here. Jeffrey posts something he likes, I tell him I don't like it, and he tells me I'm wrong. :lol:

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What I'm trying to figure out is what would be achieved if one could prove with certainty that the label is fake.

People with good intentions do insert new labels in old fiddles which have lost their labels, and they might insert as accurate a facsimile as they can with no other intention than to provide as accurate a label as possible, just as a repairer would try to restore a broken off corner of a fiddle with a new corner which looks as much like the old one as possible.

The status of the label says nothing conclusive about the fiddle, and, I assume, the status of the fiddle is the real issue.

Dear Steven,

I think you're (as usual) very good logic is perhaps slightly back to front here.

It is not at all unusual to be confronted with a violin for appraisal, supposedly by a maker that one has never heard of (as here). First one should try and work out roughly where it could concieveably come from, ie. any particular epoch, a region, a school or a self-taught maker etc., without any regard for any label. Should one draw a blank there, it will be unavoidable to consider the plausability of the attribution. This will involve checking in you're library if any biographical information is availiable. A late 19th. C. American regional maker, or a scottish one etc., for instance, presumably largely self-taught will be (often vastly) different to a european maker who started his apprentiship as a 13 year old in some larger workshop. A grave mistake, often made by amateurs, is to think "oh, if it's got a (say) Johann Stephan Thumhard label, it will be one, because who the hell would bother fakeing a Thumhard label".

Should all of these criteria seem plausable to the label, then one could give an evidently original entirely undisturbed label the benifit of the doubt (not innocent untill proven guilty, but the exact opposite!). To qualify as "evidently original and entirely undisturbed", a label has to have exactly the same grime and dust as the surrounding back, no edges or corners that look to have been lifted, no evidence of lighter areas of the back where another label was earlier, no dirt blobs extending under the label etc., etc., etc. Should any of these (or x other similar) reasons for mistrust be apparent, the last and only way to confirm or refute the attribution will be to try and find another example of this maker to compare with. If that were not possible, I would be obliged to tell my customer that I can't identify the instrument.

So much to the status of a label.

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to add to what jacob said, to understand fake labels you have to understand how a forger thinks, i worked briefly for one of the biggest violin crooks in southern california, and the first thing he would try to do is identify what the violin looked like, not what it was, as he probably didnt know, then hed make the judgement whats the most valuable maker who bears some distinct resemblance to this violin, then bam presto the fake label was printed with authentic ink on antique paper, then carefully antiqued and inserted into the violin, for instance if he had any obscure milanese cheap jack violin, it became a testore, if he had a really good strad label german it might become a EH Roth, and if he had a cheap anon violin that reminded him of the boston school it became a ropes or a squier, he certainly believed that no violin was too cheap to get a fake label, and the more obscure the maker on the label the better in some cases,

pahdah seems to have everything ass backwards, you dont look at the label first then convince yourself the violin looks like that maker, you look at the violin, study the violin, determine what the violin might be and last of all look at the label to see if its even similar to what the violin is, and to be aware that some forger might have come to the same conclusion you did about who made the violin, and inserted a fake label of the same maker or school you were thinking it was, this is where the really difficult task of determining if a label is original or a reproduction begins;

ive spilled my heart here about what are the signs of fake labels, and jacob took it to the next level above, it appears all of you guys dont know a fake when you see one and no amount of preaching about fake labels is going to convince you that your precious violins are fake, i know what fakes are, how to make them; when and where they are used, and this pahdah hound fiddle is A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF A VIOLIN THAT MIGHT BE FAKE, doesnt mean it is fake, but its not looking good from my end, dont believe me? prepare to be ripped off, over and over, ignorance is not bliss in this business

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ive spilled my heart here about what are the signs of fake labels, and jacob took it to the next level above, it appears all of you guys dont know a fake when you see one and no amount of preaching about fake labels is going to convince you that your precious violins are fake, i know what fakes are, how to make them; when and where they are used, and this pahdah hound fiddle is A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF A VIOLIN THAT MIGHT BE FAKE, doesnt mean it is fake, but its not looking good from my end, dont believe me? prepare to be ripped off, over and over, ignorance is not bliss in this business

You think quite a bit of yourself, don't you?

It must be exhausting not to have everything that flies from your fingers taken as 100% true and accurate, not subject to doubt or conjecture.

One day "all of you guys", that is, us, might achieve the level of infallability that you have, but until then your patience is appreciated.

Again, Good luck to you, though it doesn't sound like you ever need it.

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to be honest with you argle, i feel like an associate professor giving a lecture on violin forgery, and your just some punk kid at the back of the class that wont listen to anyone,mouthing off, do you realize how incredibly difficult it is to learn the secrets of the violin trade in books or on the internet, sure the're experts here BUT THEY AINT SAYING MUCH, all of this stuff I and jacob have mentioned is not available in books, why because many of the big time people in the trade ARE INVOLVED IN FORGERY, and they dont want to give away their secrets,

anytime you go into a shop and every violin has a label, or any ebay seller where every violin has a label, don't be stupid, argle, and believe those labels had legs and just walked in there. the violin business is one of the most crooked in the world, just like the jewelery business. im trying to educate people like you argle, to grow up and stop being a sucker, and stop falling in love with the first pretty label that comes your way. argle your assignment for tomorrow a short essay on what you know about fake labels and how you spot them,

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*sigh*

A professor, no.

Lyndon, I think you are a self-important blowhard.

You started this thread trying to discredit a label in a violin on ebay,

and when everyone didn't fall in line with your opinion, out came the claws.

You went on to disparage the seller and the restorer and anyone else who disagreed with you, and did so in a rude, vulgar, and childish way.

You are not a professor of any sort, and I feel NO obligation to prove anything to you, much less be "educated" by you.

You are not some wise, all knowing sage of the violin world, you are a bully as far as I can see.

I'm dropping your "class", Lyndon.

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i was going to say, your out of the class, by, dont come back!! you get a d-

the thing about professors is they dont have to be nice to you, they are allowed to make mistakes, there not perfect by any means, there even allowed to discuss conspiracy theories with the class, but on their course material they have to be informed, and in this case, fake labels, i happen to know a lot about them, as i said having worked for a forger,

i do not think anywhere in this whole thread have i said this is a fake label, only it looks like it could be, why you have such a problem with that, who knows, i mean it looks like a fake label looks, i could easily make one that looked just like it, youre in denial of that, BUT YOU DONT KNOW WHAT FAKE LABELS LOOK LIKE, do you, if youd actually read half of what i said youd know something, but you didnt, did you, so thats why youre out of the class, argue-burgle

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