does this label look 100 yrs old??

[lyndon]

check this one out, padah hound buys his stuff at auctions, so he may be a victim of fraud himself, but this label looks liked it could have been made last week!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Outstanding-Antique-American-Boston-School-Violin-No-Reserve-/330615429452?_trksid=p4340.m1374&_trkparms=algo%3DPI.WATCH%26its%3DC%252BS%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D15%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D2993150625994560599

[stephen maloney]

check this one out, padah hound buys his stuff at auctions, so he may be a victim of fraud himself, but this label looks liked it could have been made last week!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Outstanding-Antique-American-Boston-School-Violin-No-Reserve-/330615429452?_trksid=p4340.m1374&_trkparms=algo%3DPI.WATCH%26its%3DC%252BS%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D15%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D2993150625994560599

On my monitor it looks pretty brown, not black. Like faded ink in old 19th c. books I have.

[Brad Dorsey]

He doesn't get all the violins he sells at auctions. He is selling this one for a friend of his and of mine who is a collector and dealer of good Boston area violins. To me, the label has the faded brown color of old ink not the jet black of modern ink. Also, I have had a Walter Ropes violin, and I have seen several others, and this label is consistent with the other Ropes labels I have seen.

Perhaps you don't know that pahdah_ hound is a member of this forum. I repair and set up many of the violins that pahdah_hound sells. I set this one up maybe a couple of years ago. I have no doubt that this violin is genuine and accurately labeled.

[lyndon]

well lets let our readers decide if this is faded brown old ink as you say brad, or freshly printed jet black ink as i say, ive seen this fresh jet black ink over and over on "genuine" old padah hound labels, maybe someone you know brad is manufacturing them, i just know having worked for a violin label forger, these are amatuerish fake labels IMO a professional forger could make them look old to where it would be hard to tell from pictures

[lyndon]

heres a j b squier from henry strobels website, certainly the varnish is totally different, similarities???

http://www.henrystrobel.com/squierfrt1.jpg

[lyndon]

i should add that its not completely impossible that some rare types of ink wouldnt fade in 100 yrs, just very unlikely, but on top of that this isnt just one case, but one of many; most of the many pahdah hound violins labels i have seen have this same too fresh look to the handwritten parts. personally i wouldnt bid on a violin with a label that looked like this, it looks too much like a fake, which is not to say 100% it is a fake, just that theres a significant amount of doubt, the same amount of doubt pahdah and brad should have, never go by labels etc etc.......

[fiddlecollector]

Lyndon i think your monitor or eyesight are slightly off, on my screen it looks like faded ink with a brown hue and a slight green tint.

It takes alot longer than 100 years for good quality ink that isnt directly exposed to light to fade a great deal.

[stephen maloney]

I am no expert, very far from it, but regardless of whether or not the label is original, the violin itself seems nice and I dare say the seller is known as one of the few good guys left on ebay.

[Michael Richwine]

I have met Pahdah hound, and seen a number of the instruments he's had for sale. Nothing I've seen of his strikes me as bogus.

My monitor is calibrated pretty well for photo work. What I see is a picture of an old label with slightly faded ink, and patination that matches the inside of the back very well. The label certainly looks original to the instrument. (Contrast in the photo might have been boosted a bit, since it's underexposed.) That, combined with Brad Dorsey's observation that the violin is "right" for the maker, leads me to think that your monitor is badly calibrated, and you are overly suspicious without good reason. I'm automatically very suspicious of anything offered on Ebay, but in this case I wouldn't be afraid to bid on the instrument.

Pahdah hound's reputation is probably his most valuable asset, and to my knowledge he works pretty hard to maintain it, as most of us do. Seems to me that casting unjustified aspersions on a dealer who does his best to act ethically is flirting with actionable conduct.

[arglebargle]

Brown for me!

On my screen, it is clearly faded to brown, and does look 100 years old.

Besides that, it is also clearly (to my eyes) an early Boston school violin, and very likely a Walter Ropes.

A nice fiddle all around.

[lyndon]

heres an example of an old label from the other thread that looks faded like a real label, no idea about whether it belongs in the cello though. or even if its genuine, but the ink shows the appropriate fading for the date, on my monitor pahdahs does not

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190577726752?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[jacobsaunders]

Seems to me that casting unjustified aspersions on a dealer who does his best to act ethically is flirting with actionable conduct.

Living in Europe, I obviously have no opportunity to become familiar with 19th C American instruments. With Austrian or German handwriten labels from the late 19th. C things would be much easier, since the handwriting (alphabet)of the time was quite different from present day orthographie. I'm sure that colleagues in N. America will be able to find examples of late 19th C. American handwriting for purposes of comparison.

The only reference work availiable to me re. American fiddles is the Wenberg dictionary. Wenberg unfortunaltly omits to mention if Ropes used printed or manuscript labels, does however observe that he advertised medals he won (later) on his label, which leads one to imagine that these labels were more than probably printed. Since he presumably hadn't worked for Squier by 1897, a similarity with Squier at this period of his oevre would be curious. Furthermore, would not such a spidery handwriting be unusual for a young man?

Altogether, until such time as I had seen a second manuscript Ropes label for comparison, I would both find Lyndons scepticisim justified and be unconvinced myself. Since there is no such thing as a ebay dealer with the benifit of clergy, I find the sugestion of "flirting with actionable conduct" far fetched.

[lyndon]

can we all at least agree with the statement, "the label in question shows significantly less fading of the ink than would be typical for 114 years old"

the reason i posted the link to the "italian" cello, real or not that label shows what i would consider typical fading for 1933, now how this looks black on my monitor and brown on everyone elses, 100 year old labels dont exactly all turn brown, a lot of the really faded ones look more grey to me than brown, brown could just be the colour of the ink used

i have an american violin with a probably real label from 1907, wish i could show you a picture, its totally faded by comparison, even more so than the cello label, and no fiddle collector this is not from exposure to sunlight its just what ink does over time, maybe this label in question is 20 or 30 years old, i know when im shopping on ebay if you see labels where the numbers in ink are darker than the text which is printed its probably a fake, normally the hand inked numbers fade a lot quicker than the printed text of the label.

heres a label from an appraised genuine gemunder violin i recently sold, youll see the numbers 95 are still fairly dark(unusually so IMO) but a heck of a lot lighter than pahdahs label and turning "grey" as i would call it, not brown

[Brad Dorsey]

can we all at least agree with the statement, "the label in question shows significantly less fading of the ink than would be typical for 114 years old"...

No.

[lyndon]

so youre saying that this label is typical of 100 yr old labels, what kind of idiots do you take us for brad, but as the violin has been through your hands it makes sense that you would say that.

[MikeC]

Ink color is not an accurate indication of age. I've seen thousand year old oak gall ink that is still black and new modern made sepia brown calligraphy ink that starts out faded.

Not that I know anything about violin labels.

BOK folio 309 recto, 800 AD, Doesn't look much faded.

[MikeC]

On the other hand, sometimes ink does fade. So it's an unreliable indicator.

[stephen maloney]

Apparently the buyer had no problem with it; they ponied up 3 grand for the fiddle.

[lyndon]

the statement i made is that ink fading is typical, but that there are exceptions, if brad were trying to say that this is one of those exceptions where the ink doesnt fade much, he might have some ground to stand on, however to state that this label has a typical degree of age and fading is complete nonsense, the fading on the cello label above is what i would call typical,

mike if that document is legit, i would suggest it hasnt been exposed to any light for 1199 out of its 1200 yrs

[fiddlecollector]

On the other hand, sometimes ink does fade. So it's an unreliable indicator.

Mike looks more like the ink /or gilding is detaching from the paper/parchment than actually fading.

[fiddlecollector]

Lyndon the label which the thread is about doesnt look unusual at all. As regards handwriting styles they can very tremendously depending on the persons education/location . Some ink is incredibly stable to light and resists fading ,its all to do with ink quality,type and light exposure/environment its kept in.

Did the ink contain shellac,gum arabic or some other binder ,they all effect the stability of the ink and how they would be attacked by light and chemical pollutents.

If its been in an industrial area with high levels of sulphur dioxide and other pollutents then it will more than likely fade a little faster.

Most gall ink isnt actually black to start with, its usually more of a black/ blue tint. The label in question doesnt have jet black ink so i dont see what the problem is. I dont care either way if its authentic or the label was done last week but its just my observation.

[lyndon]

do you see anything about this label that says it couldnt be a fairly recent fake, fiddle collector, i mean the paper is totally uniform clean with no stains or dust buildup, the clump of "dirt" just to the right of the label doesnt extend at all onto the label, and the inside of the back is considerably dirtier than the paper of the label, im not denying that some ink doesnt fade as much, just stating this is unusual and isnt come across so often as heavily faded ink, the printed parts usually fade a lot less than the handwritten parts though

[arglebargle]

so youre saying that this label is typical of 100 yr old labels, what kind of idiots do you take us for brad, but as the violin has been through your hands it makes sense that you would say that.

Whoa now. When did Brad ever say that it is "typical"?

And Lyndon, the fact that Brad has seen, held, and worked on this very violin carries alot of water for me.

Maybe he is wrong about the violin, or the label, or not, but I'll take the opinion of someone who has had actual contact with an instrument (or anything for that matter) over the opinion of someone looking at a picture on a monitor on the other side of the country any day.

The label doesn't look as clean as you say, how do you know that is a clump of "dirt", and the back doesn't look all that dirty to me.

AND you have never even held the violin!

Every now and then, believe it or not, a violin is just what it says it is.

[lyndon]

i made the statement that we should be able to agree the label is not typical of the amount of fading we usually see in 100 yr old ink to which brad refered "no" by which i assume he is infering the opposite is true; it is a typical label, simple as that, argle bargle if youre so trusting of amateur violin dealers that make their own appraisals are you willing to part with your own hard earned money to buy this stuff, i guess my problem is everyone says what a great seller pahdah is, great at charging more than retail, whats good about that, great at describing anything and everything he sells to be top quality, when at best its average, whats good about that, pahdah hound has been touted as an ebay success story, his whole reputation based on honest representation of what he is selling, and im sure a lot of his buyers cruise this forum, i just thought there was some monkey business going on here, as this is just one example of many suspicious labels i have seen, i must clearly state i have no concrete evidence of fraud or dishonesty on pahdahs part, but i definetly think he is too trusting of the worth of labels in violins he sells,

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Ok. Take it easy.

It's one thing to discuss a subject and have different opinions about it. A bit of slightly wicked humor thrown is, in my opinion, tolerable and even entertaining.

Going a step further is something else. In my opinion, it's happening a bit too often for my tastes... and both those deserving of criticism and those who may not be quite so deserving can be affected.

We are not the ebay police. Ebay is ebay's problem. I'm quite sure there are both good and terrible sellers there.

The subject: If we're discussing a particular MA maker and have a question about a label, rather than "shooting from the hip", there are ways to solve the issue. Checking with an expert on US makers, for example. David Bromberg comes to mind... but there are two other rather good authorities on New England makers in MA. One or two might even be able to recognize the maker's handwriting. Also, before arguing about the age and appearance of the label, wouldn't it be smart to find out what it's made of? Paper and velum attract dirt, hold ink, and yellow in quite different ways.