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Secret Knowledge and violins


Craig Tucker
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Thanks for your interest. At this time, I'm not going to show pics or release any recordings at least until details of an objective testing protocol get worked out. There are a LOT of 'copyists' out there, ya know!

Thanks for your interest. At this time, I'm not going to show any test protocols or release any test methodes, at least until a fiddle is available for testing. There are a LOT of 'copyists' out there, ya know!

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I don't think an objective test is possible to determine a good sounding violin. Just as there is no test possible to determine the best painting or the best musical composition. All these things are aesthetic experiences and therefore subjective.

One can say the Ravinius violin or viola sounds good because it has gained a robust following among professional musicians

Oded

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The main thing that bothers me about Dunnwald parameters is they're based on 'subjective' data from a group of "good" fiddles - rather than based on pure acoustic string theory. Just sayin' ... :)

Jim

I'd say Dünnwalds work was an attempt to find 'objective' properties that could be related to instrument quality. The quality of the best instruments were probably given by the musicians, while they picked factory fiddles or anything else from appropriate or convenient sources.

I wonder have you made any violins, Jim?

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I don't think an objective test is possible to determine a good sounding violin. Just as there is no test possible to determine the best painting or the best musical composition. All these things are aesthetic experiences and therefore subjective.

"Functional Art", Oded.

IF a violin's 'objective' is to project a certain blend of frequencies - and no one measures it - you're pretty much limited to finding only what you're looking for.

We're NOT talking about determining which is the best violin per se. We're talking about objectively measuring 'how well' a violin performs its task.

Incidentally, measuring for fifths is merely a suggested starting point.

Jim

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Mostly I posted this here because I have seen both ends of this spectrum recently - one who believes he's "missed the boat" and one who implies he possesses special hidden knowledge.

In my universe (I believe in quantum physics...) both views are slightly right and left of center.

and

In my opinion all of the various (grandiose) hints and posturing can be safely ignored. Also there exists the idea that one may grow old and die never knowing the “true secret(s)“…of the initiated.

Well, there isn’t one. (emphasis added.)

The more you make, the better you get, and the more people you ask and the more you circulate, the more “inside” information you acquire.

When you get down to basics, it's pretty a straight forward premise.

Stated simply, there really isn't any "secret" or inside, or cloistered traditional knowledge regarding violin making.

There may well be proprietary contemporary methods, but even those can be seen or heard by direct examination of the product in question.

When such ideas exist only in theory, then it might as well be stated that, in fact, we have a theory.

I suppose that there are people out there who are so enamored with their own theories, that they hold them as a sort of "secret knowledge".... not to be disclosed. But - it seems to me that such a condition inevitably reveals itself in conversation, and becomes self evident after a short while, in the which, it may well behoove us all to simply nod affirmatively in a knowing fashion and move on to greener pastures rather than continuously beat a dead horse with hints and innuendo regarding something that hasn't yet evolved beyond the idea stage, and in any case will never be disclosed...

Perhaps I'm alone in having absolutely no interest in pursuing something that another poster hints at, but will never actually directly present?

No put down intended, I simply start losing interest when this sort of tedium starts manifesting itself recurrently.

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This is troll-food, Craig. It is what keeps him going. Everyone is flapping their jaws arguing with an empty box. And the box loves it.

I believe you are correct Chet, and truly, I don't mind troll-food, because great ideas can come from unlikely sources - and idea people are just as entitled to have a voice as anyone is, and all the pc rest.

It's only when it drones on and on, and becomes more than painfully obvious that, as a matter of fact, in all likelyhood a deception is being perpetrated, and no one seems able to simply stop, that it gets weird for me.

I just kept three of my grandkind for three days.

Here's a brief synopsis of their stay;

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.

I do too.

No you don't.

Yes I do.

No you don't

Yes I do.

No you don't

Yes I do.

No you don't

Ad infinitum...

OK kids, time to move on.

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[quote name='ctviolin' timestamp='1315241532' post='513577

When you get down to basics, it's pretty a straight forward premise.

Stated simply, there really isn't any "secret" or inside, or cloistered traditional knowledge regarding violin making.

There may well be proprietary contemporary methods, but even those can be seen or heard by direct examination of the product in question.

When such ideas exist only in theory, then it might as well be stated that, in fact, we have a theory.

I suppose that there are people out there who are so enamored with their own theories, that they hold them as a sort of "secret knowledge".... not to be disclosed. But - it seems to me that such a condition inevitably reveals itself in conversation, and becomes self evident after a short while, in the which, it may well behoove us all to simply nod affirmatively in a knowing fashion and move on to greener pastures rather than continuously beat a dead horse with hints and innuendo regarding something that hasn't yet evolved beyond the idea stage, and in any case will never be disclosed...

Craig

I like your sensible and logical thinking...and most of all your soothing way with words...you're obviously a good grandpa...

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On the +side, continued acoustic research is getting us much closer to understanding stringed instrument 'design' principles [both pre- and post Cremonese design].

It's understood many people don't care about these things. And yet, Stradivari himself made violin design changes still copied today ~300 years later. Think about that a little bit.

I wish you all well! :)

Jim

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No you don't

Yes I do.

No you don't

Yes I do.

No you don't

Ad infinitum...

OK kids, time to move on.

It's good to throw in a "Yes you don't" every once in awhile just to insert an imbalance and cause pause for thought.:)

I just can't understand why someone would waste valuable time and energy arguing something when it appears they have little understanding of the point they are trying to argue.

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