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Secret Knowledge and violins


Craig Tucker
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You seem to indicate that there is a connection. What is the relationship between phase and dB in your view?

In violin, frequencies get blended in such fashion [frequency separation] that different frequencies travel at different acoustic particle velocities. "Phase" in bowed strings simply refers to timing relationships between individual component frequency waveforms and for the composite waveform as well. I think part of what's missing from current violin theory is neglecting acoustic particle velocity differences in the Sound Intensity equation: I = pv, where "p" is sound pressure and "v" is acoustic particle velocity.

Do you have any evidence as to what they had in mind?

Not "evidence". I think though they were simply attempting to control phase relationships between bowed string frequencies and projected violin soundwave(s) using math/geometry.

Jim

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Yes. Describe a "hole" in my theory [compressed & rarefied air] and I'll attempt to fill it. To date, no one has offered anything other than a 'subjective' listening test. How would that prove to you there's a working 'Model' with clear correlation between string tuning frequencies, resonant modes, and great sound which gets projected? [i'm saying things don't correlate with existing Cremonese 'Models' 'cause they messed-up on their geometry proportion]

Jim

These things have been addressed so many times already, that I will decline your invitation to yank on your thingy.

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Not "evidence". I think though they were simply attempting to control phase relationships between bowed string frequencies and projected violin soundwave(s) using math/geometry.

How would they have noticed or recognized phase relationships? Any evidence that they had the mathematical chops to do this?

Oded

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a loudspeaker with perfect phase response only has that at 0 distance from the speaker, the further you get from the speaker the more phase shift for the highs, moderate phase shift in the mids, with negligible phase shift for the lowest notes, im sure the same is true for violins, obviously phase shift might have something to do with the see saw frequency response graphs we get from violins, even loudspeakers break up and stop acting like pistons at some point, same for violins it seems; the simple movements of the plates are reserved for lower frequencies, the higher tones have much more complicated vibration patterns

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In violin, frequencies get blended in such fashion [frequency separation] that different frequencies travel at different acoustic particle velocities. "Phase" in bowed strings simply refers to timing relationships between individual component frequency waveforms and for the composite waveform as well. I think part of what's missing from current violin theory is neglecting acoustic particle velocity differences in the Sound Intensity equation: I = pv, where "p" is sound pressure and "v" is acoustic particle velocity.

Not "evidence". I think though they were simply attempting to control phase relationships between bowed string frequencies and projected violin soundwave(s) using math/geometry.

Jim

I like to extend the benefit of the doubt, but with the above statements that use many words but state nothing, I can only assume you have too many buzzwords at your disposal, and a very sketchy idea of what your trying to convey. If the Cremonese violin sound was due purely to geometry, we would have been building exact replicas centuries ago. I need not explain that these violins have been copied to the nnth degree as far as dimension and thickness numerous times, but always falling short of the mark. If you have a definite theory, cut the BS and stop trying to obfuscate things with a bunch of technical catch phrases that are used without context. After nearly 400 posts in this thread, you still haven't made clear what frequencies you want to compare phase between, or what the desired phase relationships you wish to see.

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I also like to give people the benefit of doubt and enjoy entertaining alternative (sometimes crazy) theories, but your ideas Mr. Murphy and your ability to express them are sorely lacking.

One simple example pretty much nullifies your theory. There are numerous examples or very unorthodox violin/viola shapes that if your theory had any validity would sound very different from a standard instrument. But they don't, their sound is indistinguishable from a standard violin.

Oded

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How would they have noticed or recognized phase relationships? Any evidence that they had the mathematical chops to do this?

Music is really all about "timing". Frequency is about timing. Phase is the timing between separate frequency waveforms.

Armed with a Frequency of Notes chart and a special math/geometry-based '3D set of curves' [or "acoustic model"] tying distance vs time relationships together, a 16th century Italian genius would have all that's needed to 'organize' played string frequencies and phase relationships as well.

At least one person had the math chops to design the whole family of classical stringed instruments. Back then, "phase" had nothing to do with analyzing corpus resonant mode vibrations.

Jim

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Armed with a Frequency of Notes chart and a special math/geometry-based '3D set of curves' [or "acoustic model"] tying distance vs time relationships together, a 16th century Italian genius would have all that's needed to 'organize' played string frequencies and phase relationships as well.

You MUST be joking! ANY evidence that this informations was available at the time?

At least one person had the math chops to design the whole family of classical stringed instruments.

Francois Dennis has put together a very plausible method for recreating Cremonese forms based on architectural drafting methods of the period. But this in not way validates your theory.

Oded

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If you have a definite theory, cut the BS and stop trying to obfuscate things with a bunch of technical catch phrases that are used without context. After nearly 400 posts in this thread, you still haven't made clear what frequencies you want to compare phase between, or what the desired phase relationships you wish to see.

I do have a definite theory and we're 'discussing' things right here rather than 'publishing' explicit details on a public forum.

With all due respect Bill, these modern theories based on corpus resonant modes and "statistical analysis" of measured dB response on "good" fiddles [Dunnwald] haven't exactly solved the mystery of Cremonese instrument design and certainly have not led to any significant breakthroughs in producing much better violins or projecting great sound to a listening audience.

Being that Cremonese chose to tune violin in fifths, it may be prudent to 'objectively' start looking at phase relationships between 3:2 frequency ratios. It may very well be "circle of fifths", for example, meant something entirely different to some 16th century Italian genius than to modern acoustic researchers.

Jim

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Jim, a simple search on google should convince you that violin and the other string instruments were not made out of the blue by a single person, whatever genius this person would have been. Development of the final violin shape is a multiple centuries natural trial and fail phenomenon. Even Newton had his way well paved by Copernic then Kepler. without them no gravitation theory, at least not by Newton in the 17th century.

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You MUST be joking! ANY evidence that this informations was available at the time?

While modern research has obsessed over corpus resonant modes and statistical analysis, the best 'evidence' IS the '3D set of curves' themselves

we think was first used by Andrea Amati in violin design and 'copied' and/or tweaked ever since [by Stradivari himself too with refinements].

The '3D set of curves' literally shape the frequency response of any instrument. Change the curves [including f-hole shape and position] and you change the sound.

The "proof" will be a violin, viola, etc whose sound and projection qualities far exceed the best so far. I'm open to suggestions for how the acoustic experts should 'objectively' measure and identify such advanced sound qualities.

Jim

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With all due respect Bill, these modern theories based on corpus resonant modes and "statistical analysis" of measured dB response on "good" fiddles [Dunnwald] haven't exactly solved the mystery of Cremonese instrument design and certainly have not led to any significant breakthroughs in producing much better violins or projecting great sound to a listening audience.

Do you have any documentation to back up your opinion?

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While modern research has obsessed over corpus resonant modes and statistical analysis, the best 'evidence' IS the '3D set of curves' themselves

we think was first used by Andrea Amati in violin design and 'copied' and/or tweaked ever since [by Stradivari himself too with refinements].

The '3D set of curves' literally shape the frequency response of any instrument. Change the curves [including f-hole shape and position] and you change the sound.

The "proof" will be a violin, viola, etc whose sound and projection qualities far exceed the best so far. I'm open to suggestions for how the acoustic experts should 'objectively' measure and identify such advanced sound qualities.

Jim

How about coming up with a fiddle to test in the first place?

So you do not think that graduations has any effect on the violin response? Only the archings?

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So you do not think that graduations has any effect on the violin response? Only the archings?

How about coming up with a fiddle to test in the first place?

The '3D set of curves' includes both arching & grads of course.

Which acoustic test(s) would you consider adequate to "prove" a significant advance in violin sound projection? This is a very simple question.

Jim

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The '3D set of curves' includes both arching & grads of course.

Then why not call arching for arching and graduations for graduations?

Which acoustic test(s) would you consider adequate to "prove" a significant advance in violin sound projection? This is a very simple question.

I'd figure out one if you can come up with a fiddle to test. :D

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I'd figure out one if you can come up with a fiddle to test. :D

Anders,

You seem like a technically openminded person and perhaps one more interested in objective testing for comparing violin sound quality.

Let's say you wanted to 'objectively' measure how well two violins generate and project frequencies in a perfect fifths ratio [3:2]. Where would you position the mic(s) and what other

equipment would you use to narrow your measurement to fifths only? Also, would glissandi be a sufficient method to exercise each violin??

Thanks,

Jim

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Anders,

You seem like a technically openminded person and perhaps one more interested in objective testing for comparing violin sound quality.

Let's say you wanted to 'objectively' measure how well two violins generate and project frequencies in a perfect fifths ratio [3:2]. Where would you position the mic(s) and what other

equipment would you use to narrow your measurement to fifths only? Also, would glissandi be a sufficient method to exercise each violin??

Thanks,

Jim

I am very interested in seeing and hearing one of your violins, Jim. Do you have any recordings? Any pics?

Thanks in advance!

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I am very interested in seeing and hearing one of your violins, Jim. Do you have any recordings? Any pics?

Thanks in advance!

Thanks for your interest. At this time, I'm not going to show pics or release any recordings at least until details of an objective testing protocol get worked out. There are a LOT of 'copyists' out there, ya know!

Jim

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