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Interesting story about department of justice raid on Gibson Guitar factory


actonern
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It's getting CRAZY!!!!!blink.gif

Out of control: Feds ready to seize more guitars at concerts

edit - The article above is from a questionable source, I got from a friend, did not look at the website and re-postesd, an obvious mistake, I was going to delete it but decided to live for humor, and to retain the sense on the next few posts, sorry.huh.gif

Edited by carlobartolini
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The whole thing is absolutely stupid. According to the article, importing finished fingerboards is legal, however, unfinished wood stock or blanks is against the law.

The only net difference is which side of the ocean the remnant shavings and sawdust are left on. Either way, the trees get cut, the fingerboards made, and installed on instruments.

It seems from the link Carlo posted that they are threatening to go on a Gibson guitar witch hunt. Does it matter in which century the instrument was manufactured, or are they just going to confiscate and destroy anything labeled Gibson?

Unless it's an endangered or protected wood species, the Fed's should go back to tracking down contraband bird feathers.

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[quote name='Bill Yacey' timestamp='1337535994' pos

Unless it's an endangered or protected wood species, the Fed's should go back to tracking down contraband bird feathers.

I believe that is the crux of matter, looking at Madagascar ,or the amazon on google earth, will reveal the amount of endangerment.

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If the mandate of the Feds is to truly protect endangered / protected trees, why would they allow the importation of finished products made from the same protected wood? That's the true idiocy of the situation.

The simplified story is trees are being harvested faster than they can regrow. If they balance this problem out, the world will happily keep turning.

While not helping the debate, another point to consider is whatever is blacklisted by the rest of the world, most likely the Chinese instrument industry will glom up these resources in the blink of an eye.

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It seems from the link Carlo posted that they are threatening to go on a Gibson guitar witch hunt.

Take a look at the rest of the things that website chooses to post. I wouldn't give that article much credibility, as there is a quite clear agenda against the existing administration.

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If the mandate of the Feds is to truly protect endangered / protected trees, why would they allow the importation of finished products made from the same protected wood? That's the true idiocy of the situation.

The simplified story is trees are being harvested faster than they can regrow. If they balance this problem out, the world will happily keep turning.

While not helping the debate, another point to consider is whatever is blacklisted by the rest of the world, most likely the Chinese instrument industry will glom up these resources in the blink of an eye.

I think it's a lot harder(more jobs) for folks in a country like India, to produce a finished product, like a finger board ,than it is to simply load logs into a container..The act of processing must relieve some of the economic pressure that is driving folks to stripping the forest, A value added product, produced locally is generally a better option in a limited resource situation..Perhaps not a full solution, but one that is working in the right direction.....

The Idea that the Chinese market will suck up all the available resource might be true ,but following that logic, we should all drive hummers,wear Ivory buttons and become profit driven consumers, since everyone else is doing it....not to get all high and mighty, but two wrongs don't make a right. Without controls on who we are as a culture,we have no leg to stand on,when it comes to others rights,or wrongs.

The photo of Obama with the guitar, in that article, makes it look like he confiscated it himself!

I suppose we could al ways buy cheapo violins and rob the FB and the fittings.........:lol:

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I think it's a lot harder(more jobs) for folks in a country like India, to produce a finished product, like a finger board ,than it is to simply load logs into a container..The act of processing must relieve some of the economic pressure that is driving folks to stripping the forest, A value added product, produced locally is generally a better option in a limited resource situation..Perhaps not a full solution, but one that is working in the right direction.....

The cutting is due to supply and demand. I don't think finishing the components in India will alleviate the pressures put on the logging industry.

The Idea that the Chinese market will suck up all the available resource might be true ,but following that logic, we should all drive hummers,wear Ivory buttons and become profit driven consumers, since everyone else is doing it....not to get all high and mighty, but two wrongs don't make a right. Without controls on who we are as a culture,we have no leg to stand on,when it comes to others rights,or wrongs.

I fully agree with you; the point I was trying to make is the market will likely just shift to another buyer unless we can all adhere to these laws worldwide.

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Take a look at the rest of the things that website chooses to post. I wouldn't give that article much credibility, as there is a quite clear agenda against the existing administration.

Sorry, should have looked into the website before re-posting, my friend who's a prominent musician, known worldwide, posted it on Facebook today, so I thought he new something, since he is active in the business and I'm not anymore, he hears the word of mouth, and is a very honest guy without an agenda, but you are right, I should have looked more, having dealt with journalists most of my life I do know how they are not well informed most of the times, and may have an agenda....either way I have no idea what's going on. I do distrust politicians from all parties, as they are not looking out for the people, they are looking out for their own desires.

Time will show if the article is only sensationalism or if there's truth in it. I hope for the 1st option)

He also posted (I agree with him):

Just the pure documented fact that Gisbson, one of the last remaining American guitar manufacturers, has been radied by the Feds is enough cause for alarm. Being an American that was born in Cuba, a still existing communsit regime, it breaks my heart that my own signature model is now being manufacutered in Chna, in case someone forgot that it's still a Communsit courntry, due to American companies having to move their buisness over seas as they get havely taxed by the goverment.

Mike, my apologies above.

Since I already posted a link from a questionable website, I might as well dig deeper and post one from a even more questionable source, the government.biggrin.gif

Testimony of Rep. Jim Cooper House Natural Resources Committee Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs May 8, 2012

Edited by carlobartolini
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BTW, I have planks of rosewood that I bought 20 years ago. Do I need a permit to sell them now?

Maybe not a "permit" per se for domestic sale, but it might be wise, both for you and the buyer, if you have a lot of documentation available. If anyone thinks they have a simpler and reliable answer, chances are they are just underinformed. You can see my post on our meeting with government enforcement representatives. Interpretation of the laws, and how to enforce them is a work in progress.

See post #4 in the "More on the Lacey Act" thread.

Some fundamental questions:

Can you prove what kind of rosewood this is, where it came from, and when? If you have receipts for some 20-year-old rosewood, can you prove that they are for the very same wood you mentioned?

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I'm sorry, but between the patriot act, the house resolutions, fema/dhs, cispa,sopa, and now ndaa, lumped in with the Lacey act, which basically makes you a terrorist , now a terrorist or criminal for owning wood. Sorry this is not America, and anyone who makes this seem like no big deal and that well, all you need to do is go get your permit has got their head in the sand.

The "government" that is doing this to you is put in place via the media which is controlled by the the people who OWN the currency supply...

Just in case you don't know how it works.

Currency,money,the most important thing in the tangible world is supposed to be a DEVICE created for the people by the people,paid for with APPORTIONED TAX to be used in a free market society.

What we have now is a PRIVATE FOR PROFIT CORP. WHO'S PRODUCT IS YOUR CURRENCY. Unless you live in China,Russia or Iran, you are using the Corporation PRODUCT. And they are charging you 30-40% of your income to be able to use their money and then fold the rest into "government expansion" which in turn creates more borrowing....

{see 16 trillion dollar national debt...ie the profit you owe the bankers for making your money, that they don't have}{not including the unsecured 700 trillion dollar bond market, ie. IOU's they sold the world that YOU are responsible for backing}

Once you understand the ramifications of this FACT, and just how money as debt scams work, who is in charge of them and how your republican/democrat paradigm ties into all this. You will understand exactly why they are doing all this paper work to basically turn you into a potential terrorist for opposing this corporate tyranny.

And what you see, slowly starting, is a revolution, and just so you know what it is about, it is about what I just said...AND HOW IT IS WRONG...

So, in a land where the best, most award winning violin maker, David.B. can't take in a couple of neighborhood kids as apprentices because he does not have the insurance, permits and would be "endangering children"....in a land where you should even have to THINK about if its WRONG to own wood cut 20 years ago...in a land where we're having meetings with jingoistic agents who don't even know what they are really doing, or why they are doing it,just that they are supposed to. Here again this is they way the NWO works, they take a good cause and will manipulate it into what we have with this "law" which by the way, "they didn't write"....yup just following orders.

There is a line in the sand, one side is money printed as debt and all the corporate/political interests that benefit off money printed as debt, then there is the rest of us. That is what the NWO is for those who do not know.

Personally I'm not going to stand for this crap, and just like all the rest of these NWO rules, laws and regulations, I just ignore them and go back to planing on how to get the hell out of here, or go back to sharpening the spear tips on all my violins, trust me, I saw it coming,I didn't put spear tips on there for nothing

Sorry for the rant, but last time I checked currency,money and the flow of it has everything to do with making and selling violins. Free markets are supposed to be free, not....this

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I agree with most of what you said Jezzupe. This over regulated NWO state is not America. The loudest complainers will win in the end. The airwaves and media will be regulated soon so that no complaints will ever be heard again. Complain about these regulations and senseless laws while you still can.

Scott

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Well thanks, I guess, I'm not sure what part you don't agree with, but I'm glad you spoke up. the reality of this farce is that we all want to do the right thing, no one wants forest destroyed and species to go extinct.

I have offered on solution, the "government" if they wanted could have funded private companies to get a rare wood forest projects off the ground, be it here hydroponically or there with management, with all the money they have spent on hunting down already cut and dead trees.

I don't want to go into what the media as we know it is, but I will say this.

This "forest wood thing" while an issue,is being intentionally made an issue. The real issue

as shown in this pic

0.jpg

dwarfs any environmental issue such as forestry by a magnitude so great, that numbers would not do it justice

do you know what your looking at? thats the pacific ocean being killed by radiation, the destruction of an entire connected ecosystem

its the end of the world as you know it

Why, one may ask, knowing just how much we know about ow dangerous unchecked radiation is, why was the moment it was clear that there was a major problem, why was an international coalition not formed to even try to do something to stop this?

and furthermore, why is the militarymedia not say ANYTHING about it....ladidda, hey your all gonna die, wow, did you see American Idol?

Believe me, there not saying anything about it for a reason. Reactor 4 is in full meltdown, as I recall they made hollywood movies about such devastating events, and here we have it in real time, cooking your ocean, cesium and hot particles EVERYWHERE ....

and

NOTHING

"hey lets go get those guys with the wood"

This place will get exactaly what it deserves

Anyway, if you look up Janka hardness charts, you will see there are several materials that are plenty hard enough for fingerboards. I just picked up a bunch of African Pear wood that will be fine for fingerboards. Ebony at 3220 I think the pear is at 3600-3400

These charts are just guide lines, all wood has harder and softer within the same species...

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I have first hand knowledge and first hand testimonial from family members of the radioactive devastation in the Pacific Ocean, what can we do? The damage is already done. We can land a man on the moon (43 damn years ago) but we can't replenish a tree that has great commercial value? With all of our experience and expertise we still can't harness and control nuclear power. What's happened in the last decades that has caused us to be in this state of no advancement whatsoever? Maybe we're looking at it right here, before our eyes. High technology and advancement has turned into this, the computer age, just the next evolution of the CB (citizens band radio). 10-4 good buddy, is this really advancement? High Tech encyclopedia is advancement?

Scott

We are less than individuals anymore. we are conformists.

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http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/545370_4050594462222_1202793453_33931131_1855167278_n.jpg

david burgess, heres a picture of a traffic jam in new zealand, a beautiful place that doesnt have a lacey act, perhaps it might be worth your while to visit!!

Didn't know anyone had gotten a photo. That's me in the truck chasing those sheep. ;)

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Well thanks, I guess, I'm not sure what part you don't agree with, but I'm glad you spoke up. the reality of this farce is that we all want to do the right thing, no one wants forest destroyed and species to go extinct.

I have offered on solution, the "government" if they wanted could have funded private companies to get a rare wood forest projects off the ground, be it here hydroponically or there with management, with all the money they have spent on hunting down already cut and dead trees.

I don't want to go into what the media as we know it is, but I will say this.

This "forest wood thing" while an issue,is being intentionally made an issue. The real issue

as shown in this pic

0.jpg

dwarfs any environmental issue such as forestry by a magnitude so great, that numbers would not do it justice

do you know what your looking at? thats the pacific ocean being killed by radiation, the destruction of an entire connected ecosystem

its the end of the world as you know it

Why, one may ask, knowing just how much we know about ow dangerous unchecked radiation is, why was the moment it was clear that there was a major problem, why was an international coalition not formed to even try to do something to stop this?

and furthermore, why is the militarymedia not say ANYTHING about it....ladidda, hey your all gonna die, wow, did you see American Idol?

Believe me, there not saying anything about it for a reason. Reactor 4 is in full meltdown, as I recall they made hollywood movies about such devastating events, and here we have it in real time, cooking your ocean, cesium and hot particles EVERYWHERE ....

and

NOTHING

"hey lets go get those guys with the wood"

This place will get exactaly what it deserves

Anyway, if you look up Janka hardness charts, you will see there are several materials that are plenty hard enough for fingerboards. I just picked up a bunch of African Pear wood that will be fine for fingerboards. Ebony at 3220 I think the pear is at 3600-3400

These charts are just guide lines, all wood has harder and softer within the same species...

Could also be a chart of wood drifting from japan, some of which might be on the lists of endangered species..

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Could also be a chart of wood drifting from japan, some of which might be on the lists of endangered species..

Wow, excellent idea. Instruments made with salvaged Fukashima drift wood.

"That violin has got real "sizzle"..."

"Wow, that guitar sounds killer"

Hey , I can't wait until they start going door to door with demo crews ripping out peoples wood floors and cabinets....

Really whats the difference? I can't bring some of my old clients houses to the airport, but if I could, I'm sure they would be confiscated.

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I have first hand knowledge and first hand testimonial from family members of the radioactive devastation in the Pacific Ocean, what can we do? The damage is already done. We can land a man on the moon (43 damn years ago) but we can't replenish a tree that has great commercial value? With all of our experience and expertise we still can't harness and control nuclear power. What's happened in the last decades that has caused us to be in this state of no advancement whatsoever? Maybe we're looking at it right here, before our eyes. High technology and advancement has turned into this, the computer age, just the next evolution of the CB (citizens band radio). 10-4 good buddy, is this really advancement? High Tech encyclopedia is advancement?

Scott

We are less than individuals anymore. we are conformists.

Considering Lacey Amendments were passed in 2008, you self-styled independent "thinkers" might want to explain how our politicians had the foresight and wisdom to come up with those amendments to distract us from the Fukishima nuclear disaster, which largely resulted from an unanticipated millennial-period earthquake/tsunami, in 2011.

It's clear at least one poster forgot to take his meds to prevent psychotic breakdown. Lunatic fringe doesn't even begin to describe the bizarre posts. The fact we've have a nuclear disaster does not mean there aren't other ecological disasters going on simultaneously, and that we're actually in a position to mitigate the latter and not in a good position to do much about the former.

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Considering Lacey Amendments were passed in 2008, you self-styled independent "thinkers" might want to explain how our politicians had the foresight and wisdom to come up with those amendments to distract us for the Fukishima nuclear disaster, which largely resulted from an unanticipated millennial-period earthquake/tsunami, in 2011.

I may not be on board with some of the more radical thinkers here, but I'm not on board with you either. Major earthquakes and tsunamis in Japan are far from unanticipated.

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