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fiddlecollector

turpentine

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Carlo, sounds like you got your share of  poor weather.  Staying with varnish is a lot  more frustrating, but safer-  fred

 

Hope someone can describe what they observe when the caustic reaction occurs.  fred

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55 minutes ago, FredN said:

Carlo, sounds like you got your share of  poor weather.  Staying with varnish is a lot  more frustrating, but safer-  fred

 

Hope someone can describe what they observe when the caustic reaction occurs.  fred

Hey Fred,

The reaction to Siberian turpentine ...

In cooking....the finished Varnish is prone to "mud flats" crackle, adhesion problems, and a tendency to top dry and not through the film. 

In application as a solvent....

Dissolving the previous varnish layer.

Shortening the dry to tack time.

Always good to hear from another varnish maker!

on we go,

Joe

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On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2011 at 10:07 AM, fiddlecollector said:

Joe ,do you actually know where Recochem is sourced and whats in it??

The reason i started this thread was because i want a source of turpentine that is made in the traditional way, it seems no-one appears to make it ,or at least many claim to but when you read the data sheets etc... they have usually been economical with the truth.

I think its impossible to try to make a Cremonese varnish without the correct materials, recochem may be suitable and work for varnish but its not what they would have used. Ive been trying to find a source of that turpentine oleoresin i mentioned to you in private which i believe they (cremonese)would have used and with the language barrier its hard to get anywhere fast.I know someone with a villa in the correct location so may try that way of sourcing some through the locals.

 

On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2011 at 12:13 PM, fiddlecollector said:

As Mike says Scio turpentine is what Stradivari would have used.I`ve looked for Scio turpentine for years and havent been able to obtain any.The turpentine ive been using im not happy with and dont care for all the additives ,contaminants that commercial produced stuff seems to contain.

Again its back to what they used back then,you cant try and reproduce something using wrong ingredients.Many people are happy with normal turpentine and thats fine.

Another fact is that Venice Turpentine only after around 1750 became substituted with Larch due to ecomonics and availability before that it was Scio turpentine that was also known as Venice Turpentine.Named simply because Venice was where it was traded through.

Im probably being overly fussy according to some ,but i have a genuine interest in this and the chemical makeup of them. :)

 

On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2011 at 2:20 PM, fiddlecollector said:

 its the raw oleoresin im interested in as opposed to distilled turpentine.

fiddlecollector, did you find what you were looking for?

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Hi Joe, thanks for the description. I guess the word caustic  is used  as  an unpleasant result.  Thanks again     fred

 

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On 3/6/2018 at 2:25 PM, D. Piolle said:

 

 

If we listen to many modern sources , genuine sandarac is from Tetraclinis articulata ( which is a cypress), and has long been confused with juniper. All the junipers are of the same family as the cypresses by the way. Some old authors ( including L. da Vinci and L. Fioravanti) mention juniper resin. I am convinced that both were called under the name " sandarac ", surely because of the resemblance between  "tetraclinis articulata" and " juniperus thurifera". look at the uploaded pictures below.

So both could have been used satisfactory, though of different properties and virtues.

It is like about the Chio turpentine and the Cyprus turpentine in old manuscripts, there surely is a confusion, partly due to the strong resemblance between " pistacia lentiscus" ( mastic resin/ might well be Chio turpentine ) and " pistacia terebinth " ( terebinth resin = Cyprus turpentine ). And if we consider that cross-breeding occurs between those two species, then it can really had a big confusion. They sometimes share the same natural habitat.

 

This is Ossicedro ( juniperus oxicedrus) ,

5a9ed1d5719a5_Juniperus_oxycedruslarge.jpg.847530924908d446f69ece2024780cd9.jpg

We have plenty of those around here... and though its wood has a pleasant resinous smell I never managed to get large amount of resin, except few drops, though I am sure its resin could give satisfactory results.

The reason is surely that there is no resin canals in the wood but very small ones in the tiny bark ( the part of it called "parenchyme" in fact ).

I would like to know the source of the first text you mention and

I am sorry to tell you that I don't trust Philip Miller for all confusions and mistakes he made.

 

Dave.

 

220px-Juniperus_thurifera.jpg

Juniperus Thurifera

Tetraclinis articulata.jpg

Tetraclinis Articulata

Dave, the source is Nicholas Lemery, 1698.

Most texts I read from the time mention Ossicedro and Gran Ginepro only....could the Gran Ginepro be the Tetraclinis Articulata?
Seems 3 Italian varnish books from the 1700's source their Sandarac Text to Nicholas Lemery 1698,  here is the Italian translation.
Lemery.png.8373bf1a1b59a4b597accf245aa272d2.png


This other quote goes on with the lines of what you are saying:

...and the Sandracca comes from various plans similar to Ginepro —Trattati medievali di tecniche artistiche, Bianca Silvia Tosatti.

Dizionario.png.06a07f620f4a54a7862f66f28086cdff.png
Dizionario botanico italiano: che comprende i nomi volgari italiani specialmente toscani e vernacoli delle piante : raccolti da diversi autori e dalla gente di Campagna, col corrispondente latino botanico, 

-From a book from 1827, called Farmacopea.

SANDRACCA os. JUNIPERUS COMMUNIS. Lin. JUNIPERUS OXYCEDRUS. Lin. Resina.

Geme (Gem?) of the ginepro, this resin of yellowish color, which afterwards becomes more charged once aged, is usually in the form of drops, or colature (that is glued) ; it is arid, and it breaks easily. It is believed that the Oxycedrus provides the best sandracca. According to some, the best sandracca is believed to be produced by the Thuya articulata di Vaahl, which lives in the reign of Tunisia (see Vaahl, Symb., bot. p-2, p96, fig 48)

Sandracca.png.a0653af5e5f97cfe3013575bf69290c8.png

Now here is that it gets a interesting, from the 1700's translated from Italian:

The Sandracca is purified as following, take Kali (1), and maybe also Soda (2) make it boil for two hours in water, afterwards, having it strained , or poured out by inclination, place in this water the Sandracca, that you should wash with two or three mani [hands, times] of this water.

(1)
Perhaps he means Salsola Kali = Kali Turgida
Latin kallium means Potassium
Kali carbonicum is potassium carbonate = potash.
(2) Soda, there are many kinds of natural sodas, many available in the market at the time used by dyers, or to make glass, soap etc.

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3 hours ago, FredN said:

Hi Joe, thanks for the description. I guess the word caustic  is used  as  an unpleasant result.  Thanks again     fred

 

Fred,

Please excuse my taking license with the word caustic....though it well describes the effect it can have on previous coats... as I have noted many times, I am a cook, not a chemist!  Feel free to correct my nomenclature anytime!

Joe

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On 04/03/2018 at 2:32 PM, D. Piolle said:

Agreed , what Leonardo Fioravanti called " terebinto di cipro "  ( concerning turpentine... he used the word "tormentina" ) is the sap from the terebinth, difficult to collect and almost impossible to find today though it is not difficult to find terebinth shrubs.

 

 

 

In Portugal we have the trees ( Pistacia therebentus) but they are quite small and I can´t collect the sap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistacia_terebinthus

 

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On ‎07‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:11 PM, sospiri said:

fiddlecollector, did you find what you were looking for?

 

On ‎07‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 4:31 PM, fiddlecollector said:

Nope

Oh well, plenty of Picea Abies resin North of Milton Keynes to collect and alchemise with.

Edited by sospiri
typo

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On 07/03/2018 at 11:14 PM, CarloBartolini said:

Dave, the source is Nicholas Lemery, 1698.

Most texts I read from the time mention Ossicedro and Gran Ginepro only....could the Gran Ginepro be the Tetraclinis Articulata?
Seems 3 Italian varnish books from the 1700's source their Sandarac Text to Nicholas Lemery 1698,  here is the Italian translation.
Lemery.png.8373bf1a1b59a4b597accf245aa272d2.png


This other quote goes on with the lines of what you are saying:

...and the Sandracca comes from various plans similar to Ginepro —Trattati medievali di tecniche artistiche, Bianca Silvia Tosatti.

Dizionario.png.06a07f620f4a54a7862f66f28086cdff.png
 

 


Sandracca.png.a0653af5e5f97cfe3013575bf69290c8.png
 

Hi Carlo,

Thanks for the info

I have the French edition of Nicolas Lemery's book but didn't read it already...

I uploaded below two close-up pictures of " juniperus communis " . I took those pictures in the forest hundred metres below my living place.( the last one is just for fun with the sunset light through spruces ) .

I can tell you that "juniperus communis " like "  juniperus oxycedrus " are (the most often) small trees , average height is 2 metres, even at a lower altitude and even if I have seen impressively big specimens ( where I live the altitude is 1300 m ) . Their wood are devoid of resin channels ( it is also the case with the fir ), you can get resin by creating a trauma , which means wounding the trunk at the right period of the year, but then you have to wait a long time before it comes ( if it actually does ) and you will get very small quantities.

"Gran Ginepro " could likely be " juniperus thurifera " as it is supposed to grow much bigger ( could even be 20 metres high ) and incense was made from its resin in Roman times...

I can read Italian and in the first of your screen shots it says " ... The one that exudes from Ossicedro is considered the best but is very rare... "

In the last screen-shot you uploaded it says  " ...according to others the best Sadracca is believed to be produced from Thuya articulata ... "  . This so-called " thuya articulata " is " tetraclinis articulata " which also grows in Italy , southern France ...

 

Best regards

Dave.

 

 

DSC_0962..JPG

DSC_0963..JPG

DSC_1032..JPG

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On 08/03/2018 at 10:02 AM, christian bayon said:

In Portugal we have the trees ( Pistacia therebentus) but they are quite small and I can´t collect the sap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistacia_terebinthus

 

Hello Christian,

We also have " pistacia terebinths " around here ( region of Nice ) ,  they are small trees, to not say shrubs, but I ' m convinced , even if difficult, there might be an efficient way to collect small quantities of sap , like is the case with its cousin " pistacia lentiscus ". Nevertheless, it seems very difficult to me...

I 'll let you know

Best regards

Dave.

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