Sign in to follow this  
fiddlecollector

turpentine

Recommended Posts

As Carlobartolini points out, I have also found many posts in this thread confusing.

 

A comment such as "I added turpentine and X bad stuff happened" or "I did that and X bad happened" is not followed by sufficient details to determine whether the situation is specific that particular situation only or applicable more generically, and even the breadth of the generic applicability.

 

For example, by specifying SPAR varnish (need manufacturer) it is now possible for many folks to check.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joe,  Why would you not use Kerosene?

Peter,

I have seen too many problems related to kerosene...adhesion issues to the wood, between coats, alligatoring of the dried film....long lasting smell...I think it is just too greasy and leaves residual stuff in the film.

on we go,

Joe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just got a few bottles of the diamond g turps.

This is the real stuff.

I had a bottle of Win/Newton turp bought 3 years ago that was very clean smelling and real pleaure to use. I ran out and W/N turps have seemingly all turned to crap. This stuff is a perfect replacement, even better.

Do yourself a favor and buy some today!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it is. Actually in french we still call it therebentine. The one I got from Luberon was totally clear getting slightly brownish with time. I also got some turpentine from an art shop and it was as clear as water, the smell being what you could expect from something distilled from a pine tree.

I have been looking for buy Chio therebenthine but I was not able to find a source, even contacting the Chio association. I know it was used in perfume in the past, I don't know if it is still today.

Does anyone can help me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Christian ,you probably wont find any outside of museum technical departments and institutions. Its not produced commercially any longer and was even difficult to get in the 19th century. If its the stuff refered to in books as Scio,Chio turpentine then its supposed to be a thick liquid like Venice turpentine. It was also used in Arab countries for something to do with shoe making, as the tree grows in the middle East as well as the Med. The only other stuff they sell is mastic oil which is from a different tree and is very expensive but still sold (probably no good for anything to do with varnish).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/16/2011 at 7:13 AM, fiddlecollector said:

As Mike says Scio turpentine is what Stradivari would have used.I`ve looked for Scio turpentine for years and havent been able to obtain any.The turpentine ive been using im not happy with and dont care for all the additives ,contaminants that commercial produced stuff seems to contain.

Again its back to what they used back then,you cant try and reproduce something using wrong ingredients.Many people are happy with normal turpentine and thats fine.

Another fact is that Venice Turpentine only after around 1750 became substituted with Larch due to ecomonics and availability before that it was Scio turpentine that was also known as Venice Turpentine.Named simply because Venice was where it was traded through.

Im probably being overly fussy according to some ,but i have a genuine interest in this and the chemical makeup of them. :)

Hi again, been a long time away. Was searching for decent turpentine in the Caribbean and thought MN would be educational, it was...buying more Diamond G...

Some things that came up to me when reading this, I do like the historical aspect of varnishmaking.

In the mid 1500's  Leonardo Fioravanti an Italian doctor went to Spain to help in the construction of the biggest pharmacy the World had seen, financed by Phillip II, he got in trouble by criticizing the spaniards primitive method of distillation in copper alembics, he only used glass. The Italians were expert distillers at the time, most likely better than today. The renaissance in Italy was an era of excellence, there were more ebanists than carpenters in Firenze, I believe the excellence carried on in Cremona, only the very best was used. Many artists at the time bought their materials in Venice, they had so much more than we do now. The standards were high. 1620 there were 20 apothecaries in Cremona. They had all kinds of glasses available, and know how to seal very well so stuff could be well kept and transported.

Turpentine is the sap of the tree not the spirit, the most common was Pino Silvestre. The one from the terebinth used to come from Chios or Cyprus, whitish, very clear, thicker and more tenacious than the pine. 


I believe that the spirit derived from the first distillation of Pine Sap was called" Acqua di Ragia", and that same liquor placed through a second distillation was called "Spirito di Trementina". The spirit derived from water vapor distillation was called "Spirito di Ragia". But sometimes Acqua di Ragia was inappropriately called Spirito di Trementina. Also "Spirito di Ragia"

Spirits of Turpentine were made by a multitude of processes, some used hot air burners for more even and soft heating, some mixed it with sand than distilled it, some added water and separated it afterwards, some used oakum in the distillation process, they knew a lot more than we do today, had incredible glass instruments made by real artists such as Nicolò Dall'Aquila from Murano, most of it is lost knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Martin, Joe, and everyone else, been refitting my boat like a madman than had to escape the winter in Maine, but when I reached the heat I had to escape hurricanes, and reffitiing on the way, only installed autopilot in Nassau...haha......almost a year later I am in Grenada, SE Caribbean....and the varnish bug bit me again....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, CarloBartolini said:

Hi again, been a long time away. Was searching for decent turpentine in the Caribbean and thought MN would be educational, it was...buying more Diamond G...

Some things that came up to me when reading this, I do like the historical aspect of varnishmaking.

In the mid 1500's  Leonardo Fioravanti an Italian doctor went to Spain to help in the construction of the biggest pharmacy the World had seen, financed by Phillip II, he got in trouble by criticizing the spaniards primitive method of distillation in copper alembics, he only used glass. The Italians were expert distillers at the time, most likely better than today. The renaissance in Italy was an era of excellence, there were more ebanists than carpenters in Firenze, I believe the excellence carried on in Cremona, only the very best was used. Many artists at the time bought their materials in Venice, they had so much more than we do now. The standards were high. 1620 there were 20 apothecaries in Cremona. They had all kinds of glasses available, and know how to seal very well so stuff could be well kept and transported.

Turpentine is the sap of the tree not the spirit, the most common was Pino Silvestre. The one from the terebinth used to come from Chios or Cyprus, whitish, very clear, thicker and more tenacious than the pine. 


I believe that the spirit derived from the first distillation of Pine Sap was called" Acqua di Ragia", and that same liquor placed through a second distillation was called "Spirito di Trementina". The spirit derived from water vapor distillation was called "Spirito di Ragia". But sometimes Acqua di Ragia was inappropriately called Spirito di Trementina. Also "Spirito di Ragia"

Spirits of Turpentine were made by a multitude of processes, some used hot air burners for more even and soft heating, some mixed it with sand than distilled it, some added water and separated it afterwards, some used oakum in the distillation process, they knew a lot more than we do today, had incredible glass instruments made by real artists such as Nicolò Dall'Aquila from Murano, most of it is lost knowledge.

Agreed , what Leonardo Fioravanti called " terebinto di cipro "  ( concerning turpentine... he used the word "tormentina" ) is the sap from the terebinth, difficult to collect and almost impossible to find today though it is not difficult to find terebinth shrubs.

There is an excellent paper on the distillation culture in Cremona by  Professor Giorgio Maggi. It is worth reading.In Cremona there was a big culture of distillation , the Dominicans seemed to be experts apparently.

 

Fioravanti.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/11/2013 at 10:54 AM, christian bayon said:

I have been looking for buy Chio therebenthine but I was not able to find a source, even contacting the Chio association. I know it was used in perfume in the past, I don't know if it is still today.

Does anyone can help me?

I 'm not even sure it is used in the perfume industry any longer. I already asked my wife in the past, she has worked in the perfume industry around Grasse , she never heard about it...

I am also in search of this sap but I ' ll collect it personally, directly from the shrubs, it seems like it is very difficult to get an exudate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, D. Piolle said:

I 'm not even sure it is used in the perfume industry anylonger. I already asked my wife in the past, she has worked in the perfume industry around Grasse , she never heard about it...

I am also in search of this sap but directly from the shrubs, it seems like it is very difficult get an exudate.

One of my suppliers says there is a chance we can obtain some terebinthe.  I will let you know IF it happens....

To re-establish a base line for this conversation:  We have experienced problems related to the use of turpentine for many years.  There are two sources of these problems.  One is turpentine from  Siberian fir which seems unusually caustic to organic resins.  The second is turpentine [which includes almost everything on the world market] which has been stored in metal containers.  The turpentine reacts with the container or its lining and becomes "something else".

on we go,

Joe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, joerobson said:

One of my suppliers says there is a chance we can obtain some terebinthe.  I will let you know IF it happens....

To re-establish a base line for this conversation:  We have experienced problems related to the use of turpentine for many years.  There are two sources of these problems.  One is turpentine from  Siberian fir which seems unusually caustic to organic resins.  The second is turpentine [which includes almost everything on the world market] which has been stored in metal containers.  The turpentine reacts with the container or its lining and becomes "something else".

on we go,

Joe

Thank you Joe , it is kind of you.

Still I 'm used to collecting exudates directly from the forests around my place and in the whole region, as I have a background in botanic , I was first destined to be a ( so-called) forest ranger. So I am sure of what I get and the botanical and geographical origin.

By the way , greek pitch originally came from the Pinus Bruta in Calabria, and was called so because Calabria has been a part of the great Greece in ancient times.

Dave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On  a side note; I generally wear an advertising sandwhich board for Joe and his varnishes as I am really a big fan of his products. The other day I was at the guitar forum in the "build" section discussing varnish, naturally I brought up the subject as the toxicity of lacquer was the main subject. I suggested that people check out "old world" varnishes and was touting Cremona/Joe style varnish and it's solvent turpentine and how these old world products are far superior compared to lacquer and urethane as far as transparency, durability and toxicity go, and was surprised to have to whip out all the msds/.gov papers stating that turpentine is not classified as a carcinogen. In my post I had talked of how I worked for finish companies doing test work and how I though there was tons of bs related to these "better living through chemistry" varnishes and how corporate propaganda helped make old world varnish obscure, and as if by magic they re-enforced that by many of them being under the assumption that turpentine was cancerous. I thought it was "funny" how people who were asking rudimentary questions about the safety of breathing lacquer thinner somehow were under the impression, or were "pretty sure" turpentine causes cancer, which of course it does not. 

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499710

In a world driven by profit, it is hard to know what the truth about anything is anymore.

welcome back Carlo, good to see you here, we missed you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, D. Piolle said:

By the way , greek pitch originally came from the Pinus Bruta in Calabria, and was called so because Calabria has been a part of the great Greece in ancient times.

Dave.

Hello Dave

I have bought a lifetime supply of raw Greek pitch straight from the trees from a supplier in Greece.

 

From Wikipedia:

Pinus brutia, Turkish pine, is closely related to Aleppo pine, Canary Island pine and Maritime pine, which all share many features with it. Some authors have treated it as a subspecies of Aleppo pine, but it is usually regarded as a distinct species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_brutia

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, lpr5184 said:

Hello Dave

I have bought a lifetime supply of raw Greek pitch straight from the trees from a supplier in Greece.

 

From Wikipedia:

Pinus brutia, Turkish pine, is closely related to Aleppo pine, Canary Island pine and Maritime pine, which all share many features with it. Some authors have treated it as a subspecies of Aleppo pine, but it is usually regarded as a distinct species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_brutia

 

Hello lpr5184,

I am talking about historical facts my source is an old manuscript (Fioravanti if I remember well ), about Greek pitch which ,on another hand, was far from being the only oleoresin used for varnishes. But too many people think they have the real stuff because it comes from Greece. Aleppo Pine is named after a mistake of a Scottish scientist called Phillip Miller because of its resemblance with pinus brutia which is native in Aleppo. In fact Aleppo Pine  (pinus halepensis ) is one of the many native species of conifers here in north Mediterranean costs, we call it " pin blanc de Provence", ( litterally " white pine of Provence"). I use its resin as well , it is an excellent choice, I also collect maritime pine resin which has different properties but is a good stuff if you wanna know. But all those resins, even if they share many common properties, also have different other properties , trust me. The nature of the ground where they grow and the climate also influence the properties of the resin. like for linseed oil.

Beware of Wikipedia sometimes it could be very informative, but also you should beware of all the short-cuts...

Even when you read old manuscripts some species of trees ( and resins ) are not well identified, because of the resemblance between them, like the case of sandarac which seemed to be a general term for both juniper ( "juniperus thurifera" in my opinion ) resin and resin from Tetraclinis articulata . the last is considered today to be the genuine stuff, but back in older time (the time when "literature of secrets" was written ), both have surely been used under the same name.

Back to what Joe Robson and Fiddle-collector seemed to say : if you don't have the right stuff you can't re-create, not especially an exact formulation but the quality and the interesting characteristics of some old masters coatings and varnishes. Though I am convinced the way they conducted the whole varnish-cooking might be extremely different to what we do, and sure have a critical influence on the final result. I am sure there is many ways to achieve good results, but a main line...

The (spirit of ) turpentine which is commercially available today is surely mainly of the Siberian fir mentioned by Joe, and I experienced the caustic property of it and the reaction with metal containers don't surprise me.

By the way, it ' s the same with animal glues, never store hide , bone and rabbit-skin glues in metal containers, cause it weakens the glue, I also had this experience.

Dave.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, D. Piolle said:

 

Even when you read old manuscripts some species of trees ( and resins ) are not well identified, because of the resemblance between them, like the case of sandarac which seemed to be a general term for both juniper ( "juniperus thurifera" in my opinion ) resin and resin from Tetraclinis articulata . the last is considered today to be the genuine stuff, but back in older time (the time when "literature of secrets" was written ), both have surely been used under the same name.

Dave.

 

From my research I did a few years ago I believe the real Sandarac to be from the "Ossicedro", as the old texts say.

The Ossicedro is called by Linneo Juniperus Oxycedrus foliis ternis, patentibus, mucronatis, bacca brevioribus (2), but there are in these description two characteristics not always constant, and that is of having always leaves three to three, and the other of having fruits longer than the leaves. This is ordinarily a bush of mediocre height, that grows a lot in the warmer countries and is reduced to small bushes in the mountainous an northern parts, It’s trunk is tortuous and full of knots as that of the Ginepro (Juniper), of which it looks alike firstly in the figures of it’s leaves, if not that of the Ossicedro are larger, more acute and distant amongst each other. Piccioli (stems?) are it’s flowers and not dissimilar from the ones of the Ginepro, but without alikes and so very large are it’s berries, which in principle are green than yellowish, and finally in maturity the color chestnut, it is said it reaches the size of a hazelnut, even though perhaps it may not occur, except for in the more meridional countries since in other parts since in other parts it reaches only the size of a berry of asparagus, where it succeeds at the moment  in no time as long as the leaves. The Ossicedro grows not only in Phoenicia (3) and other parts of Asia, but in almost all the meridional countries of Europe, specially in Spain, in France also and they coast the sea. In Spain it is frequent everywhere, maximum in the places between Segovia and Guadarama upon the road to Madrid, where raises many as the largest trees , and widens as much that it’s trunk is used to make beams  as other large woods used by factories. It’s fruits are of a sweet flavor and appreciated, where the locals use it sometimes to eat with bread, being digestive as the berries of the Ginepro. The gum or instead resin that is drawn from the Ossicedro is claimed by some that may be the Sandracca of the Arabs (4), which can be different in virtues than the common, that is obtained from the Ginepro. It is used in medicine instead of mastic in some ointments , and is useful in the art of making a transparent varnish (5), is it used also by who writes to scour the paper after having scratched a type, as to write again above it, without danger of the ink expanding.

- already rare in the late 1600's France, It is also said to be from the Gran Ginepro which grows really tall in the great mountains of Africa. No relation to the Sandracca of the old Greeks which is orpiment. 
 

As for the Gran Ginepro:

5a9d87c59f80a_GranGinepro.png.66ca5b145266bb4808e25e91e246b099.png
 

And:

Juniperus soliis tsndique imbricatis obtufts, ramis teretibus. Juniper with obtuse Leaves every-where lying over each other, and taper Branches. This is the Juniperus major, bacca rufefeente. C. B. P. 489. Greater Juniper with a brownish Berry
The twelfth Sort grows naturally in Spain, Portugal, and the South of France, where it rises ten or twelve Feet high, sending out Branches the whole Length of the Stem, which are garnished with small obtuse Leaves, lying over each other like the Scales of Fish •, the Branches are small and taper, having no Angles or Corners, as most of the others have •, the male Flowers are situated at the End of the Branches in conical scaly Katkins, and the Berries grow below from the Side of the fame Branches. These are larger than those bf the common Juniper, and when ripe are brown.
The gardeners dictionary: containing the best and newest methods ..., Volume 1 - Philip Miller - 1759

----

 

CEDRUS {Ktdpoc and KtSptc), the Cedar, as we commonly translate it. According to the best botanical writers, however, the neipoc of the Greeks and Cedrus of the Romans was a species of Juniper. The Cedar of Lebanon seems to have been but little known to the Greek and Roman writers. Theophrastus, according to Martyn, appears to speak of it in the ninth chapter of the fifth book of his History of Plants, where he says that the eedars grow to a great size in Syria, so large, in fact, that three men cannot encompass them. These large Syrian trees are probably the Cedars of Lebanon, which Martyn believes Theophrastus had only heard of, and which he took to be the same with the Lycian cedars, only larger ; for in the twelfth chapter of the third book, where he describes the Cedar particularly, he says the leaves are like those of Juniper, but more prickly; and adds that the berries are much alike. The cedar described by Theophrastus, therefore, cannot, as Martyn thinks, be that of Lebanon, which bears cones, and not berries. He takes it rather for a sort of Juniper, called Juniperus major bacca rufescente by Bauhin, Oxyeedrus by Parkinson, and Oxyeedrus Phanicea by Gerard.1 Dioscorides" describes two species, of which the first, or large Cedar, is referred by Sprengel to the Juniperus Phcenicca, and the smaller to the Juniperus communis. Stackhouse, on the other hand, refers the common ncSpoc of Theophrastus to the Juniperus Oxyeedrus, and the KeSfUc to the Juniperus Sabina, or Savin. The Cedar of Lebanon, so celebrated in Scripture, is a Pine, and is hence named Pinus Cedrus by modern botanists. The nedpic of the medical authors is, according to Adams, the resin of the Juniper. Nicander calls it Keipow tutevdtc.1

A dictionary of Greek and Roman antiquities, Sir William Smith, Charles Anthon - 1843

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More on the Gran Ginepro:

It is a foreign Tree, large thorny, similar to the Cedro (Cedar), or to the Ginepro (Juniper), it’s leaves are made such as the Ginepro. It’s wood in Numidia is white, in Libya violet and black, and in Ethiopia very black. The Italians call it Sangu. Musical instruments are made with it. Exudes by incisions a gum similar to the Mastice. This tree is probably a species of Gran Ginepro, that G. Bauhin calls, Juniperus major bacca ruseseente, and Teostrato Oxycedrus, It’s Gum is varnish.
 

translated from Nicolas Lémery 1698

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Appreciate any description regarding the caustic reaction mentioned in some posts.

Hi Carlo, welcome back from the other world.  Any weather where you were  citing a few prayers?   fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Fred, thank you, Grenada is south of the regular Hurricane zone, there were 2 in the last 100 years, but not much damage in the bay I'm in, and they did not tie the boats at the time, now they do,

Worst weather I've encountered was a little after I left Haiti, waited for about 10 days for a weather window in Bahia de las Aguilas in the Domenican Republic, one of the most beautiful beaches I have ever seen, when it calmed down I departed at midnight to turn the Cape Beata, in between the Cape and Beata Island, quite shallow can get rough but it was really calm, but after the cape one gets all the E mess coming from the  Atlantic and bouces back at me--- than a really bad storm arrived, same mess I waited 10 days to die  returned, about 35 knots of wind which is not spectacular but with the cape near by waves came from all directions....crazy...In my path there were these pitch black quite thick lines with a lot of wind coming from it, changed my course, I believe they were water spouts, 2 of them in my path, was uncomfortable but still safer than a walk in NY. it was a aprox 14 hours passage if I remember well.

 

5127-004-D904A2D9.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/03/2018 at 7:11 PM, CarloBartolini said:

 

From my research I did a few years ago I believe the real Sandarac to be from the "Ossicedro", as the old texts say.

The Ossicedro is called by Linneo Juniperus Oxycedrus foliis ternis, patentibus, mucronatis, bacca brevioribus (2), but there are in these description two characteristics not always constant, and that is of having always leaves three to three, and the other of having fruits longer than the leaves. This is ordinarily a bush of mediocre height, that grows a lot in the warmer countries and is reduced to small bushes in the mountainous an northern parts, It’s trunk is tortuous and full of knots as that of the Ginepro (Juniper), of which it looks alike firstly in the figures of it’s leaves, if not that of the Ossicedro are larger, more acute and distant amongst each other. Piccioli (stems?) are it’s flowers and not dissimilar from the ones of the Ginepro, but without alikes and so very large are it’s berries, which in principle are green than yellowish, and finally in maturity the color chestnut, it is said it reaches the size of a hazelnut, even though perhaps it may not occur, except for in the more meridional countries since in other parts since in other parts it reaches only the size of a berry of asparagus, where it succeeds at the moment  in no time as long as the leaves. The Ossicedro grows not only in Phoenicia (3) and other parts of Asia, but in almost all the meridional countries of Europe, specially in Spain, in France also and they coast the sea. In Spain it is frequent everywhere, maximum in the places between Segovia and Guadarama upon the road to Madrid, where raises many as the largest trees , and widens as much that it’s trunk is used to make beams  as other large woods used by factories. It’s fruits are of a sweet flavor and appreciated, where the locals use it sometimes to eat with bread, being digestive as the berries of the Ginepro. The gum or instead resin that is drawn from the Ossicedro is claimed by some that may be the Sandracca of the Arabs (4), which can be different in virtues than the common, that is obtained from the Ginepro. It is used in medicine instead of mastic in some ointments , and is useful in the art of making a transparent varnish (5), is it used also by who writes to scour the paper after having scratched a type, as to write again above it, without danger of the ink expanding.

- already rare in the late 1600's France, It is also said to be from the Gran Ginepro which grows really tall in the great mountains of Africa. No relation to the Sandracca of the old Greeks which is orpiment. 
 

As for the Gran Ginepro:

5a9d87c59f80a_GranGinepro.png.66ca5b145266bb4808e25e91e246b099.png
 

And:

Juniperus soliis tsndique imbricatis obtufts, ramis teretibus. Juniper with obtuse Leaves every-where lying over each other, and taper Branches. This is the Juniperus major, bacca rufefeente. C. B. P. 489. Greater Juniper with a brownish Berry
The twelfth Sort grows naturally in Spain, Portugal, and the South of France, where it rises ten or twelve Feet high, sending out Branches the whole Length of the Stem, which are garnished with small obtuse Leaves, lying over each other like the Scales of Fish •, the Branches are small and taper, having no Angles or Corners, as most of the others have •, the male Flowers are situated at the End of the Branches in conical scaly Katkins, and the Berries grow below from the Side of the fame Branches. These are larger than those bf the common Juniper, and when ripe are brown.
The gardeners dictionary: containing the best and newest methods ..., Volume 1 - Philip Miller - 1759

----

 

CEDRUS {Ktdpoc and KtSptc), the Cedar, as we commonly translate it. According to the best botanical writers, however, the neipoc of the Greeks and Cedrus of the Romans was a species of Juniper. The Cedar of Lebanon seems to have been but little known to the Greek and Roman writers. Theophrastus, according to Martyn, appears to speak of it in the ninth chapter of the fifth book of his History of Plants, where he says that the eedars grow to a great size in Syria, so large, in fact, that three men cannot encompass them. These large Syrian trees are probably the Cedars of Lebanon, which Martyn believes Theophrastus had only heard of, and which he took to be the same with the Lycian cedars, only larger ; for in the twelfth chapter of the third book, where he describes the Cedar particularly, he says the leaves are like those of Juniper, but more prickly; and adds that the berries are much alike. The cedar described by Theophrastus, therefore, cannot, as Martyn thinks, be that of Lebanon, which bears cones, and not berries. He takes it rather for a sort of Juniper, called Juniperus major bacca rufescente by Bauhin, Oxyeedrus by Parkinson, and Oxyeedrus Phanicea by Gerard.1 Dioscorides" describes two species, of which the first, or large Cedar, is referred by Sprengel to the Juniperus Phcenicca, and the smaller to the Juniperus communis. Stackhouse, on the other hand, refers the common ncSpoc of Theophrastus to the Juniperus Oxyeedrus, and the KeSfUc to the Juniperus Sabina, or Savin. The Cedar of Lebanon, so celebrated in Scripture, is a Pine, and is hence named Pinus Cedrus by modern botanists. The nedpic of the medical authors is, according to Adams, the resin of the Juniper. Nicander calls it Keipow tutevdtc.1

A dictionary of Greek and Roman antiquities, Sir William Smith, Charles Anthon - 1843

 

 

If we listen to many modern sources , genuine sandarac is from Tetraclinis articulata ( which is a cypress), and has long been confused with juniper. All the junipers are of the same family as the cypresses by the way. Some old authors ( including L. da Vinci and L. Fioravanti) mention juniper resin. I am convinced that both were called under the name " sandarac ", surely because of the resemblance between  "tetraclinis articulata" and " juniperus thurifera". look at the uploaded pictures below.

So both could have been used satisfactory, though of different properties and virtues.

It is like about the Chio turpentine and the Cyprus turpentine in old manuscripts, there surely is a confusion, partly due to the strong resemblance between " pistacia lentiscus" ( mastic resin/ might well be Chio turpentine ) and " pistacia terebinth " ( terebinth resin = Cyprus turpentine ). And if we consider that cross-breeding occurs between those two species, then it can really had a big confusion. They sometimes share the same natural habitat.

 

This is Ossicedro ( juniperus oxicedrus) ,

5a9ed1d5719a5_Juniperus_oxycedruslarge.jpg.847530924908d446f69ece2024780cd9.jpg

We have plenty of those around here... and though its wood has a pleasant resinous smell I never managed to get large amount of resin, except few drops, though I am sure its resin could give satisfactory results.

The reason is surely that there is no resin canals in the wood but very small ones in the tiny bark ( the part of it called "parenchyme" in fact ).

I would like to know the source of the first text you mention and

I am sorry to tell you that I don't trust Philip Miller for all confusions and mistakes he made.

 

Dave.

 

220px-Juniperus_thurifera.jpg

Juniperus Thurifera

Tetraclinis articulata.jpg

Tetraclinis Articulata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.