Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Posible $200K violin PLEASE HELP!!!


HullGuitars

Recommended Posts

BOLLOCKS!

A cheap and nasty worthless violin made pre 1900 in Schönbach for the Markneukirchen trade, and presumably exported to some american department store, has nothing to do with Nazis, Holocaust or the German Jewish community and doesn't even have a "star of david" either, rather any old ornament, in this case some random star.

My link

How would you define the violin pictured at the end of this article, presented as "A violin with the Star of David" in the "Violins of Hope" exhibition in Switzerland?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My link

How would you define the violin pictured at the end of this article, presented as "A violin with the Star of David" in the "Violins of Hope" exhibition in Switzerland?

The article presents no evidence whatsoever that anybody in any concentration camp ever played any crumby Schönbach violin with any star on the back at all. The violin in you're link isn't photographed so that you could see anything exept a typical Schönbach late 19th centuary inlay. I have yet to hear anything so ridiculous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The article presents no evidence whatsoever that anybody in any concentration camp ever played any crumby Schönbach violin with any star on the back at all. The violin in you're link isn't photographed so that you could see anything exept a typical Schönbach late 19th centuary inlay. I have yet to hear anything so ridiculous.

So the exhibition was ridiculous, if I follow you? This isn't a star of David, this isn't a violin owned once by survivors of the Holocaust, as you don't have any "evidence" of it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, exactly

Well, referring to your precedent post ("not being in any way remotely an expert on "Stars of David") I would rather have the weakness to trust Mr Weinstein and the organizers of the exhibition in this matter. And I think that the need of "evidence" on this particular subject is quite hazardous. Not to say more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, referring to your precedent post ("not being in any way remotely an expert on "Stars of David") I would rather have the weakness to trust Mr Weinstein and the organizers of the exhibition in this matter. And I think that the need of "evidence" on this particular subject is quite hazardous. Not to say more.

Your weakness is intellectual, I'm afraid. Yours are among the most idiotic postings I have read on maestronet (or online in general).

It's a straw man, this whole thing. There is no direct connection, never was. It isn't even a Star of David on those violins. As if any jew would purposely seek that out anyway, or need to. But it makes for good sounding pity-party fiction that someone will make a buck from. It always comes back to that it seems these days, making a buck off of lies or the work of others. In this case, Holocaust as marketing tool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i would have thought and history shows that jewish players are looking for stradivaris and del gesus just like gentiles, the connection of these violins to the holocaust which happened some 50 yrs after they were made is lost on me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know better than jewish people what they would seek or not, for sure. Associating this exhibition with a marketing tool is outrageous, and you do it purposely. I didn't think I would find here people having this kind of problem with History. It's always a question of money, huh? You make me sick.

Ordering violins with the wrong star, two generations earlier, ready to have something to play in concentration camp and failing to supply even the veneer of a spoor of evidence that anyone even played such a box when they were there, displays a virtuose command of history of course. Selling worthless violins for 4 didget sums, with the aid of such "Provenance" is less marketing, than dispicable fraud.

Why on earth let facts get in the way of you're anguish?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i would have thought and history shows that jewish players are looking for stradivaris and del gesus just like gentiles, the connection of these violins to the holocaust which happened some 50 yrs after they were made is lost on me.

Well, when a violin maker located in Israël presents in an exhibition in Switzerland several instruments which he describes as having belonged to jewish people who went through the Holocaust, I tend to believe it. When it is said in this exhibition that some of them are inlaid on back with the star of David, I tend to believe it. But if someone having no connection at all with this tells that this is not a star of David, and that this exhibition was just made to make "some money", "making a buck off of lies or the work of others(!!)" I see very clearly the connection you are looking for. I don't see why the fact that jewish players are interested in stradivaris or del gesus is in contradiction with the fact that some of them (or non-jewish) could be looking for more specific violins regarding History.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, when a violin maker located in Israël presents in an exhibition in Switzerland several instruments which he describes as having belonged to jewish people who went through the Holocaust, I tend to believe it.

And if Bernard Madoff says he can make some money for you, you believe it too, right? Your logic is that a violin maker in Israel is beyond reproach, either intellectually, factually, ethically, financially, etc. It's laughable.

When it is said in this exhibition that some of them are inlaid on back with the star of David, I tend to believe it.

And yet blind faith is not required in the study of geometry or symbols. You tend to believe a lot; that's easier for people who do not think or see reality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And if Bernard Madoff says he can make some money for you, you believe it too, right? Your logic is that a violin maker in Israel is beyond reproach, either intellectually, factually, ethically, financially, etc. It's laughable.

Your logic is that a violin maker in Israel is to be naturally suspected of fraud or bad intentions. I don't know him, then I'm neutral, and I believe what is presented to me, as for any other exhibition, if I don't have any proof of the contrary. You don't know him, but you think it's a crook. What is your proof? You don't need one. The fact that you name Madoff is very significant. It's not laughable. It's just sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your logic is that a violin maker in Israel is to be naturally suspected of fraud or bad intentions. I don't know him, then I'm neutral, and I believe what is presented to me, as for any other exhibition, if I don't have any proof of the contrary. You don't know him, but you think it's a crook. What is your proof? You don't need one. The fact that you name Madoff is very significant. It's not laughable. It's just sad.

That's all preposterous, of course, but you're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed so it's not really your fault. Onward; you bore me. Peace out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A six pointed star is hardly exclusively Jewish. The design is extremely common. You see it in ancient Egypt, India, Freemasonry, Celtic art, idolatry, astrology, and occultism, and lots more places I can't think of offhand. So a violin with a six pointed star is not necessarily related to Judaism. IMHO, most likely not associated with it, since the Jewish Star is traditionally interleaved triangles, and the ones on the violins don't seem to be.

I lived in Germany in the 60s, worked as an interpreter for the Army, and was very interested in all aspects of German culture and thinking during WWII. Since it was only 20 years after the war, I knew a lot of people who had endured it, both as soldiers and civilians, and I asked a lot of questions. Worked in the documents section of a college library, and did a lot of reading of contemporary (1930s) journals as well. My wife's family is also Jewish, immigrated to America in the early 1900s, so I have a little basis for my opinion:

Jewish law speaks strongly against ostentation. Wealth is viewed positively, but wealth is for helping people. Talmud teaches many reasons to refrain from ostentation. Furthermore, Jews in Europe had been persecuted for centuries, and I wouldn't think that they would be into putting crude, blatant religious symbols on their possessions. Just doesn't fit the patterns that I have observed most of my life.

Based on these experiences, plus a lot more that I won't go into, I have to be pretty skeptical of Mr. Weinstein's claims. I can't say for sure whether he's right, living a fantasy, or running a scam, but everything I know leads me to ask for a lot more substantiation before I accept his story. On top of all that, most of the Jews I know, European and American, rich and poor, have better taste than that! ;) Google for images of Antique Judaica, or Jewish Antiques and you'll see what I mean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

My link

How would you define the violin pictured at the end of this article, presented as "A violin with the Star of David" in the "Violins of Hope" exhibition in Switzerland?

I'd define it as having been described by someone who's either deceived or deceitful. Not every hexagram is a mogen David just as not every 7- or 9-branched candelabrum is a menora. Surely that should be obvious??

Generally, when people do craftwork that has unusual significance, they put everything they've got into it. And that level of care shows, just as the reverse shows when people are doing whatever it is for money rather than love.

Luthiers such as da Saló and Maggini got the purfling interlacing right on the backs of the fiddles they made because they cared. But the poor German-speaking sods who made the "copies" in the late 1800s didn't know, care, or bother, so that an easy "tell" is that the interlacing doesn't work.

Similarly, someone for whom a hexagram was meaningful would have taken the time to, e.g., cut and fit the chips of perlmutter carefully, not just chop them up and fill in the gaps with paste, as we see was done on that fiddle. It was magpie work. (For examples of real MOP craftsmanship by people who cared see, e.g., the banjos produced by Fairbanks during that same period. http://www.gruhn.com/features/whytelaydie/JA2679fbu.jpg shows some lower-quality work from after the 1904 fire; the pre-fire work was markedly better)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Quite a few years ago I bought a violin on eBay for about $150 that was covered with several crudely carved stars of David (not inlaid). I thought it was interesting but had no idea of its origin or the reason for the stars. I listed it on eBay and it was purchased by Amnon Weinstein in Tel Aviv who told me that it was a concentration camp fiddle. He claimed that he was collecting such things and that this fiddle may have been made and played in a concentration camp by Shlomo Mintz'grandfather. His collection of such decorated fiddles has received a lot of press, but he does not admit to buying that fiddle from me on eBay but rather claims he found it in a Florida tag sale-which is where I told him it came from. The person who sold it to me on eBay bought it at a Florida tag sale-she said.

Weinstein is a contributing writer for Strad magazine and Mintz is an internationally known violinist and soloist who accompanies Weinstein on fiddle excursions.

Bests,

Jesse

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Be advised that the guy selling this violin is a known scammer. He has at least two ebay accounts and lists his location in Atlanta, Chattanooga, Chickamauga, and Ringold, Georgia. He currently has a cheap Chinese violin that he's representing as a Scott Cao STV-1500 violin. It is not a Scott Cao STV-1500. Here's one of his many listings for this scam:

http://nashville.craigslist.org/msg/2631466613.html

If he is knowingly selling a counterfeit violin how do you know that his other items aren't cheap counterfeits? He's been reported to the U.S. Customs for infringing up on a trademark and for counterfeiting Scott Cao violins.

CAVEAT EMPTOR!

Edited by CaveatEmptor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everyone here knows how little I know about violins... but that fingerboard inlay is a dead giveaway, even to me. This is an old department store fiddle that has been in someone's attic (probably in the USA) since the 1930's. They have lots of bling in the finish and decoration, but a mirror should show the underside of the belly has deep unfinished gouge marks.

If people saw this and said it was Italian... <_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Be advised that the guy selling this violin is a known scammer. He has at least two ebay accounts and lists his location in Atlanta, Chattanooga, Chickamauga, and Ringold, Georgia. He currently has a cheap Chinese violin that he's representing as a Scott Cao STV-1500 violin. It is not a Scott Cao STV-1500.

His user accounts on ebay are Family Violin Shops, Family Violins, Hull Guitars, and maybe others. He goes by the name of Grant Hull and his phone number is 423-322-9420.

You can see his Scott Cao scam here:

http://nashville.craigslist.org/msg/2631466613.html

I would avoid dealing with this scammer at all costs.

CAVEAT EMPTOR!

Rather ghastly to think that Mr. Grant Hull would be trying to sell fake Scott Cao violins. Have you any legal proof that someone has been ripped off, like yourself? If so post copies of the court proceedings for all to see.

Be advised that you, "CaveatEmptor", are NOT anonymous to a certain person (and perhaps even other persons who read this forum frequently) which eventually may well cause your expenditure of much more money [attorney fees, court costs, and financial awards to the plaintiff] than the price of several hundred 'authentic' Scott Cao violins....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rather ghastly to think that Mr. Grant Hull would be trying to sell fake Scott Cao violins. Have you any legal proof that someone has been ripped off, like yourself?

That's a logical question. A call to Scott Cao might result in a reliable answer as to the authorship.

Be advised that you, "CAVEAT EMPTOR", are NOT anonymous to a certain person and perhaps even other persons who read this forum frequently, which eventually may well cause your expenditure of much more money [attorney fees, court costs, and financial awards to the plaintiff] than the price of several hundred 'authentic' Scott Cao violins.....

A warning? That's pretty close to a threat, and is worded as such. It's also redundant. The first question was enough. Please put away the six-shooters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think gdg or CaveatEmptor are anonymous to anyone are they?

I've pretty much descided not to engage with anyone on maestronet who doesn't use their own name. I would like to learn from the many people on maestronet more knowlegeable about particular things than I am, but if you don't know where the information's coming from then it would be foolish to give any weight to it at all. For my part I may make occasional controversial statements, but at least everyone can research whether I should even be taken remotely seriously ... the verdict may be NOT, but at least I'm out in the open and happy to be shot down.

Can I suggest that everyone who doesn't need to remain anonymous start using their real name?

My name is Martin Swan, as stated to the left of this post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...