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Does age matter?


joerobson
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The good news is that both parties are correct:

- pentose sugars (5 carbon rings such as a ribose) are the structural backbone of DNA and RNA, but can also be used in energy pathways (pentose phosphate shunt)

- hexose sugars (6 carbon rings such as glucose) are used in energy pathways, but can also form structural backbones of polysaccharides - some with easily broken down links if they are energy storage sinks, eg glycogen, and other with more resistant links if they are meant to form mechanical fibres, eg cellulose.

All's well that ends well.

And now back to Age (a good lawyer would say: not if you don't want a fat lawsuit claiming age discrimination).

Are you trying to say my butt looks big in these pants? :blink:

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Yes, back to age. I am stating {if it be true or not, thats up to you and "scientists"] that the age of the THINNED wood, wood thinned 350years ago, has an effect on the phyisical properties of sound based on the woods properties being changed by Oxidization for lack of better term,based on radiation exposure, there are actually several things effecting the material over time.

This is a good article about blue and violet light causing sub uv degradation and effecting the lignin.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2007/fpl_2007_kataoka001.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=5ScHG-7DQF0C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=photodegradation+of+wood&source=bl&ots=jVSauCdP98&sig=AGCgYGZWu8T7Y4fR1OUgyjIA3lU&hl=en&ei=RJovTsGtIovViAK2os0r&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=photodegradation%20of%20wood&f=false

here page 277, starting at 14.2.1

observe 14.3.2 related to micro checking, this "handbook" of environmental degradation pretty muck backs up most everything I have said. Take note of the pictures which clearly show what I was describing. Perforation based on degradation from exposure.

One may nitpick the way I said what I was trying to say. I'll try again in a condensed version. But I think these articles I have psoted clearly show what I am trying to say;

Wood that was cut 300+ years ago, and then shaped into a very thin dimension will be effected on a microscopic level. The amount degradation corresponds to the amount of time the thinned wood has been exposed to the world. The degradation shows up as micro checking or perforation in the material, this effects several if not all important characteristics of the wood. Including water absorption/loss, strength,elasticity,stiffness,radiation,mass and dampening. Also the oxidization of the trace elements contributes to this process along with other chemical factors. Related to sound, I would say it is a unknown as to how these things effect it, but I would think it not correct to dismiss these effects on the material as well as see how the age of material has lots to do with its properties based on the facts.

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Looking at Anders' correlation table under the age category, it appears to be moderately correlated to the DE-F parameter, or clarity and brilliance minus harshness.

I have now access to the data. Here are black dots Hardanger fiddles, red dots violins in my set and the green are old Italians and instruments by some top modern makers. The blue regression line is the regression for all of the data points.

First of all we see that the Hardanger fiddles tend to have the highest DE-F values of all. There seem to be an opposite trend with age for the violins and hardanger fiddles (black and red lines respectively), and nothing for the old Italian and top modern (green).

This dataset is somewhat larger than the set you have seen a correlation from Don.

post-25136-0-41652400-1311796771_thumb.jpg

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Thanks, Anders.

Looks like objective measurements (so far) don't show much of an effect of age on tone.

Hi Don, the former plot was the data from the impact hammer spectra. I just saw the data for the played scale long time average spectra, which show a clearer effect. I do unfortunately not have too many data points of the older fiddles, so this needs to be updated when I have more old instrument data.

I think we see a clear trend here, Don, and this might be the data column you originally referred to.

post-25136-0-52899100-1311798609_thumb.jpg

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I might add, to me, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being very important. That any of the changes related to age, that I have disscussed would be about a 1. So small I don't think measurng could pick "it" up. what ever it may be. I feel that it is all of the little things added up that make the few super superior sounding old Italian instruments that we all know and love :rolleyes: sound the way they do. Actually I feel that Don's processing yeilds a simmilar type of material without the need to be immortal. The microwave does it a bit too, different, but sorta the same.

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Interesting and complicated subject here ,, Reference to a previous post of the tonewood vs construction lumber , the question here is can you duplicate a violin that was made out of construction wood to violin made by quality tonewood ? and when I say duplicate I really mean to duplicate every sound factor ( Model , arches , joint tension, vibrating frequencies according to palate thickness ) Hence I doubt if it doable !! So many people think logically that tonewood would sound better either from a scientific wise or just theoretical wise I mean here not from a field test .

Back to aged violin, IMHO there is a certain sound quality in the old violin that you I never found it in the recently made violins and when I say aged and new I mean more than 20 years and new as up to 10 years, even if the new violin sounds better However there is a certain quality wouldn't be there you just find it in the old aged violins . \

I recall once I read an article about a guitar player was talking about how playing the instrument will effect in a positive way to improve the sound .

Regards,

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I might add, to me, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being very important. That any of the changes related to age, that I have disscussed would be about a 1. So small I don't think measurng could pick "it" up. what ever it may be. I feel that it is all of the little things added up that make the few super superior sounding old Italian instruments that we all know and love :rolleyes: sound the way they do. Actually I feel that Don's processing yeilds a simmilar type of material without the need to be immortal. The microwave does it a bit too, different, but sorta the same.

I will go back and read your suggestions. But why would age help Italian instruments more than say German, French or for that sake instruments with origin in any other country than Italy?

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Ignoring the powerful psychodrug effect that the words "Old Italian" seems to have on some people, and sticking to boring logic...

The only way for age to affect tone is via material properties... stiffness, density, and damping. Simple, but not so simple if you consider that there are different values in different directions, and there is frequency depnedency, and glue and varnish thrown in, too. But, anyway...

Even with significantly different values in the measurable material properties, the effect on tone is not hugely apparent. There is some satisfaction in that -so far- the theoretical "good" acoustic properties appear to correlate to "good" acoustic performance. Specifically, from Anders' correlation chart,

Lower density correlates to strength in the 2 - 2.5kHz band

Higher speed of sound correlates to higher overall sound level, plus some strength in the lower frequencies.

Higher Radiation Ratio correlates to higher output in the 1.6 - 3 kHz range

Lower plate weight: improved overall Dunnwald tone score

And in the 2007 VSA Papers, violins made with thermally processed wood (with significantly improved measured properties) showed slightly overall higher sound levels, with most of the improvement in low and high frequencies.

In my mind it boils down to this: Construction parameters matter most, but good material properties are also important. The changes due to age are much smaller than the variability from one piece of wood to the next, so it's extremely hard to separate out the effect. However, the property changes with normal aging are likely to all be in the "right" direction, giving very small improvemnents in sound over time.

The one mystery parameter in the mix is damping, which is notoriously difficult to measure, and even harder to track over time or correlate to tonal "goodness". It might matter.

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Ignoring the powerful psychodrug effect that the words "Old Italian" ...

Even with significantly different values in the measurable material properties, the effect on tone is not hugely apparent. There is some satisfaction in that -so far- the theoretical "good" acoustic properties appear to correlate to "good" acoustic performance. Specifically, from Anders' correlation chart,

Lower density correlates to strength in the 2 - 2.5kHz band

Higher speed of sound correlates to higher overall sound level, plus some strength in the lower frequencies.

Higher Radiation Ratio correlates to higher output in the 1.6 - 3 kHz range

Lower plate weight: improved overall Dunnwald tone score

Man, what's it going to take to stop kicking the same old dead horse about sound 'levels' [dBs] being responsible for good "Old Italian" sound?

Jim

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I read about 'Humidity Recycling' by Alan Beavitt and so is it possible that 300 humidity cycles would shape the arch so that it is in the best possible shape to respond to the players demands?

Alan Beavitt

"Beavitt, Alan // Strad; Sep96, Vol. 107 Issue 1277, p916

Discusses the effect of humidity cycling on violins. Popular belief about playing-in effect; Simple experiments conducted by the author; Implications of results; Explanations. INSET: Humidity cycling in brief.." - Link

Alan Beavitt's Home Page

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Or frequency separation instead of dB levels. We're talking objective measurement now.

Jim

Can you refer to any definition of "frequency seapration" as a descriptor of sound? It would be great to discuss this using objective measures. The dB (re 20 micro Pascals) scale used for description of sound levels is an example of an objective measure.

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Can you refer to any definition of "frequency seapration" as a descriptor of sound? It would be great to discuss this using objective measures.

Sure Anders. I'll explain in layman terms [here in public].

In string acoustics, you're already familiar with what effectively is 2D frequency separation between the fundamental and its harmonics, i.e., frequency separation characterized by 2D distance/time/particle velocity relationships.

Violins generate 3D frequency separation, i.e., a violin's sole mission is to instantaneously organize played string frequencies into a specific 3D pattern [or patterns] of distance/time/particle velocity relationships.

Youz guys look at violin spectrum analysis and/or modal analysis and discount obvious correlation 'cause you're only 'seeing' things in 2D [on paper] and not understanding how signature modes actually relate to the 3D pattern.

You've certainly heard great Players describe a kind of 3D sound generated by the finest Strads for example. Well, they are indeed hearing a 3D pattern of sound spatially organized by distance/time/particle velocity relationships.

For objective measurement of frequency separation and how well a specific violin generates 3D sound, youz guys are going to need to get off the 2D bandwagon and onto the 3D train. :)

Jim

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Sure Anders. I'll explain in layman terms [here in public].

In string acoustics, you're already familiar with what effectively is 2D frequency separation between the fundamental and its harmonics, i.e., frequency separation characterized by 2D distance/time/particle velocity relationships.

Violins generate 3D frequency separation, i.e., a violin's sole mission is to instantaneously organize played string frequencies into a specific 3D pattern [or patterns] of distance/time/particle velocity relationships.

Youz guys look at violin spectrum analysis and/or modal analysis and discount obvious correlation 'cause you're only 'seeing' things in 2D [on paper] and not understanding how signature modes actually relate to the 3D pattern.

You've certainly heard great Players describe a kind of 3D sound generated by the finest Strads for example. Well, they are indeed hearing a 3D pattern of sound spatially organized by distance/time/particle velocity relationships.

For objective measurement of frequency separation and how well a specific violin generates 3D sound, youz guys are going to need to get off the 2D bandwagon and onto the 3D train. :)

Jim

Jim, I am asking for an external reference for your phrase "frequency separation". Referring to your own thoughts or definitions will not do here.

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I will go back and read your suggestions. But why would age help Italian instruments more than say German, French or for that sake instruments with origin in any other country than Italy?

No, you are correct 100%. My auto-response was merely a Pavlovian group think statement foamated in a sea social engineering driven by propaganda.

This degradation from radiation,chemical changes and oxidization would hold true to any material from any part of the world, regardless of who made it or where. It does not just effect violins either.Some instruments from China in the zither family are ancient. There are some instruments that are intact and functional that are over 1000 years old, and I believe the oldest one they have found in one piece is from 1500bc, thats 3000 years old. I wonder if it was made with German supervision? :lol:

If we took a billet that was 300 years old, it would be very stable as it has cycled through many seasons of expansion and contraction. Assuming it was a nice suitable piece for an instrument, it would make "violin" "A". assuming it was put together well it would sound good.

If violin "B" was made from the same exact piece of material, by the same guy {with a time machine}in the same way,300 years earlier, it would be different sounding today[to some degree}based on the fact that it was carved to thin dimension and then exposed to time at that dimension. Thinner wood will be aeffected by Beers-Lambert law more than thicker dimensions.

Now here again no "one thing" stands alone when we delve into wood,craftsmanship and sound. I feel that this "age" thing goes very much hand in hand with the "played in" thing. Which leads into the "mode" thing we were talking about the other day. I did find the mode movements at Sleshke's site {spelling?}I do look forward to seeing anything you have.

What we see when we "watch" the modes in motion is a somewhat predetermined motion that will be set in motion when those frequencies are "hit". The quantum factor is the material and the carving.

Related to the material, it all has "hinge" points that are quantum. If we take a piece of paper and crumple it up and then unfold it and straighten it back out, it will have creases that have developed from the folding, some are big some are small and running at many various angles. you could do this 1000 times and every time you would take a fairly homogeneous material and turn it into something that is not, out of those 1000 pieces of paper not one of them wold have identical creases.

Now if took this paper and held it in our hands in many various ways, say in this example we have unfolded it, held it in the air, and held the two corners and push them together, what we see is that the paper wants to fold on the more pronounced creases, each piece would act differently regardless of the various ways we push the paper together. this could be likened to the quantum nature of the wood in that it has a structure that has quantum hinge points in the material. In quartered material it has a tendency to hinge between the summer/spring wood not taking into account cross arching.

If we did the same test with special paper that was made to be thicker and thinner in a random way, we would see how the thickness/thinness acts on the creasing. A crease that may have folded easy with the material all the same thickness suddenly act differently depending on where it is thicker and thinner. If we were pushing the corners together and with this piece one edge was very thin paper leading up to some thicker paper that was close to a hinge crease, we would see the thin paper curl and buckle as it was pushed towards the thicker, thus absorbing some of the "push" and reducing the force on the thicker part and thus reducing the motion of the crease.

Now this all relates to the 1. nature of individual wood 2. how you carve it effects the "throw" when the modes are set into motion 3. the exercising of the "hinges' in the wood by playing it often, thus keeping the elasticity that allow for the full range of motion when modes are excited by the hinge points being "loose" and finally 4. how the age of the carved plate and the material change over time interacts with all of the above.

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